Code P1780 intermittent no start issue?

Tiny
SUBWAT
  • MEMBER
  • 2002 SATURN L300
  • 3.0L
  • V6
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 130,000 MILES
Engine always cranks easily, if it starts, it runs fine, runs smooth, never dies. The engine is more likely to start when cold, but not always. After driving, then stopping, for gas, shopping, etc, it often cranks fine, but fails to start (engine is warm, normal operating temperature). It makes no attempt to fire (no spark or no fuel). Sometimes, it will start after a few tries, sometimes it has to sit for 1/2 hr. Or so before it starts. Code read is: P1780 (PNP SW), I replaced the PNP switch and erased the code, still had the same problem and the same code came back. I saw something online about a failing crank position sensor can cause this, so I replaced the CPS, same problem. I have seen online that the GM pass lock security system can cause this, but in that case the engine is supposed to start, then die and then fail to start again and the "security" light comes on. It never does that, it either starts in less than 5 seconds, or it cranks freely without one cough.
Friday, November 18th, 2022 AT 8:51 PM

59 Replies

Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 108,175 POSTS
Hi,

Your description does sound like a crankshaft position sensor, but you already replaced that. Here is what I need you to do.

When this happens, we need to determine if we lost spark or fuel to the engine. Try this. See if the engine will start if you use starting fluid. If it does and then stalls, we know its fuel related. If there is no change, I need you to check for an ignition spark.

Here is a link that explains how that is done:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-for-ignition-spark

Try this and let me know what you find.

Take care,

Joe

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Friday, November 18th, 2022 AT 10:54 PM
Tiny
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I'll do the tests asap. One thing I forgot to add earlier; I had some questions about the fuel pump relay, so I swapped it with the wiper relay. The car started fine. I let it idle a bit and shut it off. I then decided to gas it up, car started fine, I went for gas, after filling up, engine would not start. The engine at this point was fully warmed up. Got pushed to the side (did some shopping) about 1/2 hour. Later I was able to start the car and drive home. Looks like the relay is not the problem, since the swap gives the same result.
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Saturday, November 19th, 2022 AT 6:44 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
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Hi,

When you switched the relays, was the engine not starting prior to switching them and then starting after the switch? If that is the case, remove the relay and confirm the connectors in the box are in good condition, not corroded or pushed inward.

Let me know.

Joe
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Saturday, November 19th, 2022 AT 8:22 PM
Tiny
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When I switched the relays, the car had been sitting overnight. It almost always starts right up, first try when it sits overnight. The starting problem usually happens after the car has been driven, shut down and then attempted to re-start. When I switched the relays, there was no change to the way the car started, or the way it failed to start. The relay connectors are in good condition, and I've been spraying them with "Deoxit" which is the best contact cleaner I've found.

The starting problem has been going on for several months. I can always get the car started, sometimes it takes several tries, but sometimes it takes a long wait before I'll be able to start (the problem seems to be temperature related but not always).
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Sunday, November 20th, 2022 AT 9:06 AM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
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When it cranks but doesn't start does your gas gauge ever read empty even though you know you have plenty of gas?
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Sunday, November 20th, 2022 AT 5:17 PM
Tiny
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I have not seen it read empty. But, while I haven't seen it, it is possible that I didn't notice since I wasn't looking for the fuel level while cranking. I will make sure to check the gauge next time the car won't start.
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Sunday, November 20th, 2022 AT 7:01 PM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
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Yes. Just turning the key on if it reads empty what I am getting at here is those cars have a high rate of failed body control modules. Causing lots of different issues on of which is intermittent crank no start and a lot of the time when that happens the fuel gauge will read empty. Have seen that lots of times. They can be sent out and repaired and that way you won't have to have the new one programed. Let me know what you see when it doesn't start. The engine control module fails on those also and cause a crank no start. But when that happens I haven't seen them start again.
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Sunday, November 20th, 2022 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
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Also, when it doesn't start see if anything else doesn't work as well power door lock keyless entry can't shift out of park dome lamp etc.
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Sunday, November 20th, 2022 AT 7:54 PM
Tiny
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I am quite certain that everything observable remains functioning during the times the engine won't start. I have sometimes shifted from Park to Neutral to see if that makes a difference, it doesn't, but Park is not locked. I also have operated the power windows as well as the power door locks (via the button on the door) at times of no start. I don't have or use a keyless remote (my wife might have the only one). The "dome" light always remains on with the door open (I often open the driver's door in a no start situation). There are a couple of routines I found on the Net that were posted as a possible help to start which I try and sometimes they seem to work, but often they don't.
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Monday, November 21st, 2022 AT 7:06 PM
Tiny
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Drove to work yesterday, car started fine in AM, but after work it wouldn't start. I sprayed some carb cleaner into the intake manifold, but that didn't help (not a cough). Looks like spark might be the issue. I did get it to start a few minutes later. To check spark, I'll have to remove one set of intake runners, and remove the coil pack. Should I ground 2 of the spark plug connectors while I test the third for spark?
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Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 AT 9:04 AM
Tiny
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Would it help if I post all the reading items from my scanner? I only posted the main code.
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Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 AT 9:06 AM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
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Before get too crazy down the spark rabbit hole when it doesn't start can you link your scanner to It?
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Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 AT 9:20 AM
Tiny
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Yes, I'll take the scanner with me so it's available.
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Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 AT 5:01 PM
Tiny
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Is it possible for the car's computer to get corrupted, and if so, is it possible to reset it? A while back, I bought a "gas saver" gizmo, knowing it might not work, but I wanted to see if I could learn anything (it plugged into the OBD connector). Seems like the starting problem started after that. I only ran the gizmo for 3 tanks of gas, then I took it out to plug my scanner in (because of the starting problem). That's when the P1780 code showed up.
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Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 AT 5:14 PM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
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I doubt the computer is corrupt it sounds like something is getting hot failing and then cooling down. Your for sure the gas gauge works when it doesn't start?Also let's see if you can talk to the computer when it doesn't start with your code reader? Also, happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
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Thursday, November 24th, 2022 AT 2:00 PM
Tiny
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Thanks, and happy Thanksgiving to the crew at 2CarPros!
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Thursday, November 24th, 2022 AT 7:33 PM
Tiny
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You guys were right! And I'm finally making progress. I connected my scanner, turned key on and noted that the fuel gauge was on "E". Engine would not start, key off, key on, now fuel gauge "F", scanner connected and displayed some codes, then lost connection. I started the engine and scanner tried to connect but failed. Key off, key on, fuel gauge "E". I repeated this procedure several times, and "E" equals no start/"F" equals start. (Duh, don't tell me the ECM checks the gas gauge to see if it should bother to start or not, LOL). I pulled the codes from the scanner memory: #1) P0102 (this is new and probably related to my use of carb cleaner to try to start -- I did shoot the cleaner downstream of the MAF sensor, but I guess it didn't like the smell, lol), #2) P1780, #3) P0160, #4) U2105.
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Friday, November 25th, 2022 AT 10:29 AM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
  • MECHANIC
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Okay, from what you told me from the gas gauge reading empty I remember not being able to link to the ECM as well. So, what I am going to say is you have an issue with your body control module every time I have seen the fuel gauge read empty. Your best bet is to have it repaired will save you the money on buying a new one and having it programmed. Its mounted to the top of the inside pocket of your glove box will get you replacement instructions soon Super easy to do. Is this your primary car?Because it will be down while your body control module is being repaired.
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Friday, November 25th, 2022 AT 1:25 PM
Tiny
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Great! This has been a real mystery. My Wife has a car, so I'll be able to get around.
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Friday, November 25th, 2022 AT 7:43 PM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
  • MECHANIC
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https://www.g7computers.com/pages/how-does-this-work

That's the link to the repair service I had a friend send than a 2002 Saturn sc2 body control module that didn't start that had a bad BCM.He loved their services they did a good job. Its been atleast 3 years and the module still works great.I don't remember if he had to relearn the pass lock sensor or not.
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Friday, November 25th, 2022 AT 8:22 PM

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