1999 Toyota Camry hard start after replacing fuel injectors

Tiny
DKELLOGG56
  • 1999 TOYOTA CAMRY

Engine Performance problem
1999 Toyota Camry 6 cyl Front Wheel Drive Manual 141000 miles

I recently replaced the fuel injectors on my V-6 Solara due to intermittent running/missing problems. The dealer had looked at the car a few times, but finally concluded that injector replacement was the next step, at a cost of $1500. The problem was that the dealer could not guarantee that this repair would solve the intermittent running/miss problem. I was not willing to spend $1500 without some sort of guarantee. I decided to tackle injector replacement myself, and purchased re-manufactured injectors, and the intake gaskets.
I took many reference pictures before beginning to ensure all hoses and connections were reassembled properly. I had to remove the intake air plenum to replace the rear injectors, but this went smoothly.
The biggest problems were trying to remove the filter, and removing the rear plenum support bracket hardware. I now know why the dealer never seemed eager to replace the engine compartment fuel filter, the fuel line fitting was very tight and had rusted in place.

The engine started and seemed to run great. The dealer's diagnosis seems to be correct, the intermittent missing problem has not reoccurred. There has been no further check engine light warnings either. Now, there is only one problem that was not occurring before fuel injector replacement: excessive cranking before the engine starts, hot or cold. I have looked over the engine a few times and compared my pre-repair pictures, I didn't see any obvious mistakes. The check engine light has not come on, so I don't think I left any sensors/actuators unplugged.

My better half wants me to return the car to the dealer, so they can figure out what "I did wrong". I am hesitant only because I feel the dealer probably does not want to get involved with a home mechanic repair. So, please let me know where to begin. Will I need special scanners/testers to check the systems, or are there things I can look at with basic tools.

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Thursday, September 25th, 2008 AT 6:43 AM

22 Replies

Tiny
RASMATAZ
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I would check the fuel pressure to rule out a weak pump then check the cold start injector and coolant temperature sensor.

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Thursday, September 25th, 2008 AT 6:53 AM
Tiny
MERLIN2021
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I agree, but I would add check the fuel pressure regulator.
http://www.2carpros.com/car_repair_video/test_fuel_injection_pressure.htm
Go here and checkout our video.

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Thursday, October 9th, 2008 AT 5:39 PM
Tiny
DKELLOGG56
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I appreciate the advice guys, but you aren't giving me much to go on.
I don't think this model has a "cold start injector", perhaps I'm wrong.
And, there is no dedicated fuel system tap to check fuel pressure. The only connection point seems to be at the fuel filter, which has a crazy plastic pipe/oring connection. I'm guessing you need a specific adapter to check fuel pressure, and isolate the injectors from the regulator to check for leak down. The car does seem like it is flooded when it starts, so injector lea kdown could be the issue.

I finally gave in, and brought the car back to the dealer to let them check the pressure. I will replace the injectors again if they feel the "re-manufactured injectors" I installed are leaking down. The car seems to run/idle fine once started, and there is no check engine warning, which is why I suspected a IAC problem. But anything is possible. Please let me know if there is a reasonably priced fuel pressure test adapter kit for this car. I will let you know what the dealer finds.

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Friday, October 10th, 2008 AT 4:15 PM
Tiny
MERLIN2021
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Well, I would have looked at the regulator, especially if it's a hard start after a soak. The adapter is available at Toyota parts, I dont think it's too expensive, No there is no cold start injector on yours, a gauge is available here at a reasonable price.

Installing Fuel Pressure Gauge (Avalon, Camry & Camry Solara)


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/62217_Pipe_1.jpg



http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/62217_pipeb_1.jpg


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/62217_pump_3.jpg

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Friday, October 10th, 2008 AT 4:55 PM
Tiny
DKELLOGG56
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Hey guys-
Thanks so much for your detailed explanation concerning checking fuel pressure. I took the car back to the dealer today to have them replace the "flex pipe" and paid them to check out the fuel pressure. I got your reply tonight after returning from the dealer.

The running pressure was within book specs, and the leakdown (after shutting the engine off), did not exceed book specs either. The technician gave me a copy of the svc manual page describing the procedure, and his results. So, I am reasonably confident that the injectors are not leaking down flooding the engine. The dealer did not look into the hard start symptom any further due to time constraints. So, I have the car back again, it is quieter, but starts only after excessive cranking.

Thank you for supplying the pressure test adapter number, I will order one from the dealer.

So, what is the logical next step? I still suspect the IAC valve may be sticky or stuck, perhaps I messed it up while spraying and cleaning the throttle valve. I had previously removed the electro-manetic IAC actuator and discovered that it is not directly connected to the actual IAC valve. So, I am assuming that if the mechanism was jammed, or movement is restricted, there would be no fault code triggered (no check engine light).

Once again, I am suspect of the IAC because the cold idle is not as high as it was prior to injector replacement. I have a 5-speed which usually idles at about 1800 when cold, the cold idle is now about 1400. I have checked out my work several times, and honestly can't find anything obvious that I messed up while doing the job. Is it possible that I received the wrong injectors from the remanufacturing service? Are there different injectors used for the manual/automatic models?

I was going to buy a used throttle valve off ebay, there were several listed for my car. But, the various auctions were for automatic throttle valves. The sellers insisted that 5-speed models used a different throttle valve than automatics. Let me know what you think, and thanks for sticking with me. Don

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Saturday, October 11th, 2008 AT 6:11 PM
Tiny
MERLIN2021
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A bad IAC can cause hard starts, so can the ECT and a bad EWGR and PCV.

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Saturday, October 11th, 2008 AT 8:52 PM
Tiny
DKELLOGG56
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Thanks for getting back to me so quickly Merlin.I see you are located in Boston, I work out of Logan and live in Providence.
I will disassemble the IAC after I buy the gaskets, I suspect that I may have messed it up while cleaning the throttle valve.

I surely understand how the ECT could be causing a problem. I also understand why there is no check engine light if the sensor is "not out of range". I will look in the manual to see if I can find some cold/hot resistance readings for the ECT (I don't have a scan tester).

I am assuming the EGR should be "closed" when starting, I will look in the manual to see if there is some way to check that out without a scan tester. I did have to disconnect the EGR exhaust tube connector when I did the job, so maybe I disturbed the EGR.

I did check the PCV when I replaced the injectors, it was clean and working OK, perhaps the hose got split or is leaking, will check that out again.
I will get back to you once I have looked at these things.

Thanks-Don

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Sunday, October 12th, 2008 AT 9:04 AM
Tiny
MERLIN2021
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Heres the range chart for the ECT.


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/62217_ECT_8.jpg

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Sunday, October 12th, 2008 AT 9:12 AM
Tiny
DKELLOGG56
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Merlin-
Thanks for the graph, I check the ECT cold, was about 3000 ohms, hot was about 200 ohms. So, that seems to say there is no problem with the ECT.
I also looked at the "throttle cracking system".I'm not sure just what it is supposed to do, but it looks like the throttle was slightly cracked when the engine wasn't running, and closed (against the stop) with the engine idling. So, it seems like this system is working OK. And no, I did not mess with the throttle stop adjustment, the yellow sealer is still in place.

I ordered the throttle body and IAC gaskets this morning, they will be here on Tuesday. I am hoping to find a problem here that is keeping the IAC from opening completely. I am guessing the car wouldn't idle correctly if the IAC wasn't closing completely, perhaps I loosened up some debris (or maybe a bristle from the parts cleaner brush I used) which is keeping the IAC from opening completely.

I have to drive to Logan tomorrow, so I didn't want to disassemble the IAC today without replacement gaskets.

Thanks again for sticking with me, I tried to give you "my one point", but the system said I have no points.I hope I can help you out someday, I used to be the OMC (Evinrude/Johnson outboard) service rep for the area. So, please let me know if you ever have questions about OMC outboards. Don
dkellogg56@yahoo. Com

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Sunday, October 12th, 2008 AT 3:23 PM
Tiny
RACEFAN966
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All the ideas are great and well thought out however I do have one question. You said the fuel filter was rusted a bit where it hooked to the fuel lines but you didn't say weather or not you replaced it. If you didn't replace the fuel filter and it is that old then it is time. Just another idea and I didn't see an answer as to the fuel being replaced or not.

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Monday, October 13th, 2008 AT 10:11 PM
Tiny
DKELLOGG56
  • MEMBER

Thanks so much for writing. Yes, it was the original fuel filter that was still in place after 140K miles. I had asked the dealer a few times about replacement, they didn't seem concerned or eager to do the job. The fuel line fitting was so tight I had to clamp the fuel line with vice grips while twisting the old filter off with a pipe wrench. But, yes, I did replace the fuel filter. And, I did wet the new filter down with fuel prior to installation to avoid damaging it.

The new IAC and throttle body gasket should have arrived by the time I get home from San Francisco tonight. I am hoping I will find a jammed or restricted IAC tomorrow, perhaps I damaged it while cleaning the throttle body (with gumout spray and a brush) while replacing the injectors.

I don't know where to go next if there is no obvious IAC problem. I'm wondering if the remanufacturer supplied the correct fuel injectors, it seems hard to believe the same injector fits so many models. Once again, my Solara is a 5-speed model, perhaps a different style injector is used.I was able to read the toyota numbers off the original injectors, but can't get close enough to the replacements to read anything there. The numbers off the original injector is: 23250-20010 and this ID appears on the other side of the injector: 8E21.
Wish me luck tomorrow, thanks
Don Kellogg
dkellogg56@cox. Net

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Tuesday, October 14th, 2008 AT 9:30 AM
Tiny
DKELLOGG56
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Well-
I disassembled the IAC, the shutter didn't seem bound but wasn't opening completely either. I cleaned the IAC mechanism, it now opens and closed completely. The IAC coil(s) resistance checked out OK. The IAC opened and closed completely when 12 volts was applied to the coils. I ran the car afterward, the cold idle was back up to about 1800. The idle speed after warm up was now about 800RPM, it came down to 700-750RPM after driving around for awhile.

The big test came this morning. Before attempting to start the car, I checked the resistance of the air temp portion of the MAF sensor, it was within range.
Unfortunately, the car still starts like its flooded. Extended cranking, the engine starts/stumbles a little before idling at about 1800. The hot start (after sitting) has similar characteristics (except it idles at 750-800RPM). The car seems to start OK if you shut it down, then immediately restart it.
So, it seems like I have more or less ruled out the coolant and intake air sensors, along with the IAC.

There is no check engine warning, the engine seems to run and idle fine. I am thinking there is something wrong with the remanufactured injectors, even though the dealer did pressure tests and felt they were not leaking down. I am tempted to reinstall the original injectors just to see if starting characteristics change, just wish it wasn't such a big job. Then I would have to change the injectors again anyway. There is a used set on ebay for $50, I am tempted to buy those.
So, what do you think guys? Is there another way fuel can be leaking into the engine flooding it? How about the EVAP system? Is there anyway that system could be flooding the engine? Could I have done something to mess up that system while changing the injectors?

Thanks-don

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Thursday, October 16th, 2008 AT 1:30 PM
Tiny
MERLIN2021
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If it passes a leak down test, they are OK. Try looking for manifold vacuum leaks. You may have a vacuum leak, get a can of spray gumout, spray the vac lines and manifold area, when the idle changes, youve found the leak! You want the engine running and spray on the outside but do direct the stream onto the hoses, if it is a vacuum leak, the engine idle will change speed, then you have detected a leak, repair the vacuum leak and see how it runs! If that doesnt do it, you may need a new idle air control valve, it's bolted to the throttlebody

How are the brakes? The check valve on the booster could be leaking vac as well, air should only flow one way thru it. Stuck EGR valve also.

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Thursday, October 16th, 2008 AT 3:52 PM
Tiny
DKELLOGG56
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Merlin--
I did look for air leaks, sprayed around the pcv and hose, didn't really detect any RPM changes. I realize my tests are not conclusive, I did spray around the air plenum gasket that was replaced when I replaced the injectors. Again, didn't really see any RPM fluctuations. Would the car even idle if the EGR was stuck open? How would you test the EGR for slight leaks when closed? I looked through my online manual, but could not find any procedure for checking intake vacuum with a vacuum gage.
I have already disassembled the IAC by removing the throttle body, replaced the gasket and IAC oring seal.

The IAC had some soft black soot, which I'm guessing is normal, it's movement seemed OK though. The resistance values of the IAC control checked out OK, and the IAC opened/closed correctly when I applied 12 volts to the IAC actuator.
The IAC seems to be functioning correctly, fast idle is about 1600, and idle seems real smooth at 750.

I did not mess with the throttle cracking screw adjustment, it still has its yellow sealer on it. The throttle cracking mechanism seems to work correctly, the throttle is cracked open slightly with the engine off, and closed when idling. I have not messed with the throttle position sensor, don't want to mess that up.I will check it out if you think I should, wouldn't the check engine light be triggered if the TPS was messed up?

So, I will describe the symptoms again:
Starts hard (excessive cranking) hot* and cold:
depressing the accelerator slightly seems to help out
Sputters slightly when started cold, then runs fine, sounds flooded,
*starts right up if you shut the engine off and restart immediately (idle kicks up to about 1200 for a second, then comes down to 750)

Even though the dealer did the fuel pressure tests, and concluded the fuel pump and injectors are OK and not leaking down, I still suspect there is some sort of problem with those remanufactured injectors. In order to test my theory, I would have to reinstall the old injectors, then replace them again. Alot of work. So, I have devised a little test that may (or may not) confirm my suspicions:

I pulled the fuel pump relay while the engine was idling and did my best to get it to run most of the fuel out of the injectors/rail (I realize that some pressure may still be present, just not enough to make the engine run). I will let the car sit for a few hours, then reinstall the relay and start it.

If the car starts better now, my suspicions are correct. Something is flooding the engine while it sits.I will report back tomorrow, wish me luck.

Thanks for the help
Don

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Tuesday, October 21st, 2008 AT 4:15 PM
Tiny
MERLIN2021
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Checking a bad IAC requires more that applying 12volts, thiat only tells you if it opens at all Scantool is needed that can command two way communication, by the way for what it's worth Ford(Mazda) dont recommend cleaning, only replacing the IAC's, when you cleaned it, were there any shiny spots insde it? Or outside deformed at all?

Backfires, even if not heard or felt by the driver, will damage the IAC. MAF can also cause this, it controls injector pulse width, but the IAC and ECT, IAT are more common. Either low fuel pressure, or vacuum leaks cause your problem, sometimes a reflash of the PCM is needed. Lincoln had a problem hith instrument clusters, and security modules causing this, and a wiring harness adapter was made up to fix them, I didnt see this for Mazda. Yet!

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Tuesday, October 21st, 2008 AT 4:35 PM
Tiny
DKELLOGG56
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Merlin-
I know all the emails get to be confusing after awhile. My car is a 1999 Toyota Solara with the 3.0L V-6 and a 5speed transmission, not a mazda.
I agree, my basic tests do not eliminate the IAC from being at fault. I wish I had the toyota scan tool, I'm sure it would allow me to do more tests.I will probably end up bringing the car back to the dealer, but fear they have a bad taste in their mouth because I did the job myself. And, I do understand that they don't want to get in the middle of a mess I seem to have created.I probably would have spent the $1500 and let them do the injector job, I didn't because they said they could not guarantee new injectors would repair my original intermittent miss problem.

. The car has 140,000 miles, spending $1500 on a "I think so, but no guarantee" just didn't seem very wise. The car started fine with the old injectors, it just had an intermittent missing problem after driving for about an hour. It would be quite a coincidence if the IAC went bad during injector replacement, but I know stranger things have happened. Especially with my luck. So, I have got to believe that the starting problem has something to do with the injectors or the work I did while replacing them.

What do you think of the "test" I described in my last email? I have not tried to start the car yet, after running it out of gas, I am hoping this will tell me something.I will get back to you tomorrow.
Thanks
Don

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Tuesday, October 21st, 2008 AT 5:10 PM
Tiny
MERLIN2021
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Can you tell me if the check engine light came on? And what the code(s) are? There is a Tech Bulliten on Solara's for injectors, this is it. You may still need new injectors, if you got any on the internet,or used, you may not have the right ones..

TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN
Reference Number(s): EG001-00, EG013-99, Date of Issue: January 14, 2000 Superceded Bulletin(s): EG013-99, Date of Issue: December 17, 1999 Related Ref Number(s): EG001-00, EG013-99

SINGLE CYLINDER MISFIRES
Model(s): 1999 Toyota Avalon, Camry, Sienna & Solara (CA Spec.)
Section: Engine
Bulletin No.: EG001-00
Date: January 14, 2000
NOTE: The information contained in this TSB updates EG013-99 dated December 17, 1999.

Some 1999 California Emission Specification Avalon, Camry (1MZ-FE), Sienna & Solara (1MZ-FE) vehicles may exhibit a rough idle, and or a MIL "ON" condition, in which a single cylinder misfire code, or codes are present. Changes have been made in the fuel injector production process to correct this condition.
APPLICABLE VEHICLES
1999 CA Emission Spec. TMMK produced Avalon, Camry (1MZ-FE), Sienna & TMMC produced Solara (1MZ-FE) vehicles built between the VIN numbers listed below.
APPLICABLE VEHICLES
Model Avalon 4T1BF1#B * XU298504 4T1BF1#B * XU319557 Camry 4T1BF2#K * XU076403 4T1BF2#K * XU081214 Camry (cont.) 4T1BF2#K * XU930024 4T1BF2#K * XU931330 Sienna 4T3ZF1#C * XU090887 4T3ZF1#C * XU122589 Solara (U.S.) 2T1CF2#P * XC111083 2T1CF2#P * XC757508 Solara (Canada) 2T1CF2#P * XC744113 2T1CF2#P * XC162681 Starting VIN Ending VIN
PARTS INFORMATION

This repair is covered under the Toyota Basic Warranty. This warranty is in effect for 36 months or 36,000 miles, whichever occurs first, from the vehicle's in-service date. Coverage is extended to 36 months or 50,000 miles, whichever occurs first, in the states of California, Massachusetts, and Vermont due to state emission warranty legislation.

Warranty application is limited to correction of a problem based upon a customer's complaint.

Part Name Fuel Injector
NOTE: Be sure to enter the DTC No. in the Condition/Cause/Remedy section, if a DTC Code appeared.

REPAIR PROCEDURE
1.Remove all six fuel injectors for verification of production information. Affected injectors will be labeled with a vendor part number of "23250-0A010" and have a production date code number of "828" or lower (see Fig. 1 for number locations). 2.After determining that one or more of the injectors are affected, replace all six injectors with the above applicable part number. 3.Clear the DTC, if present, and verify that the vehicle now operates as designed.
Fig. 1: Fuel Injector Identification


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/62217_injector_2.jpg



As you can see you put the BAD injectors into your car! Replace them all with the updated parts....

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Thursday, October 23rd, 2008 AT 5:13 PM
Tiny
DKELLOGG56
  • MEMBER

Merlin-
The original injectors triggered two codes, one for #5 misfire, the other for #6 misfire. I am not home right now, but still have the original injecors so I will look at the numbers and date codes.

The remanufactured injectors have not triggered any codes, and the running/idling quality seems good. I can't get close enough to the remanufactured injectors to read their date codes while they are still installed in the car. I will call the reman company, and advise them of the Toyota bulletin, and ask them to send injectors that aren't affected by this bulletin.

The test that I thought up seems to indicate that the injectors are leaking down, regardless of the results of the dealer's pressure tests: before parking the car for the evening, I rev the engine and pull the fuel pump relay. The engine runs for 5-10 seconds then stalls out.I reinstall the relay after shutting the key off so the fuel rail does not get re-pressurized.I have done this 3-4 times with the same results: The engine starts right up cold after cranking only one or two revolutions.

I realize my testing method is not completely accurate because I am not running all the fuel out of the rail, just running the pressure down to where the injectors can't operate properly. So, there is still some fuel left to leak past the injectors while sitting.
But, my cold start results seem pretty conclusive.

So, I will inspect my original injectors to see if they were part of the affected group. My Solara has 140000 miles, so I am guessing that Toyota will not offer any assistance.
Thanks again for the help and support, it will probably take at least a week to get another set of injectors and install them.I wll get back to you then.

Thanks again
Don

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Saturday, October 25th, 2008 AT 3:03 PM
Tiny
MERLIN2021
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Remeber the fuel pressure regulator CAN also cause these symtoms!

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Sunday, October 26th, 2008 AT 8:27 AM
Tiny
DKELLOGG56
  • MEMBER

Merlin-
I am back home now and have had a chance to look at one of the original injectors.I am somewhat confused by the service bulletin, it seems to read that only california emission spec cars were affected. In any event, here is my VIN number:
2T1CF28P4XC089550

My VIN number does fall into the Canadian built range, but how do I know if it indeed was Canadian built? Is my car a califormia emissions model? I bought it used, so who knows? The markings on the original injector are not in the same place as the bulletin's pictures, but the numbers are:
23250-20010, and the only other numbers I see are on the other side of the injector: 8E21.
The bulletin describes affected injectors as having numbers: 23250-0A010 and date code lower than 828.
So, I probably do not now how to read these numbers/codes correctly. What do you think?

And, I won't know what numbers are on the re manufactured injectors until I replace them.

And yes, I realize that a fuel regulator could cause leakage while sitting, but the dealer's pressure tests didn't indicate high pressure readings.
I am going to call the re manufacturer, foward this Toyota bulletin to them, and ask for another set of injectors.
Don

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Monday, October 27th, 2008 AT 2:23 PM

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