Sluggish crank and no start?

Tiny
SIZWE AMOS
  • MEMBER
  • 2003 OPEL ASTRA
  • 1.6L
  • 4 CYL
  • 2WD
  • MANUAL
  • 200,000 MILES
Hi, I have the vehicle listed above G, with a 1.6 16 valve engine that cranks sluggishly. The car was towed in as a non-runner. The only thing done was a cylinder head skim as it was warped. Before it was sent to the engineering shop, it was started by starter fluid as it refused to start on its own but ran horribly and pinged/knocked. I checked the timing, and it was spot on.

As per scan tool, the spark timing was 10° BTDC when key on engine off but was 7° BTDC when cranking, is that fine?

Before disassembly, I scanned for codes, and they are attached. Now the scan tools classify all of them as "not present" at the moment when I scanned for them, so I take that to mean that they occurred in the past but were not present, I stand corrected though.

The primary reason for the Knocking was not engine bearing related (I stripped and checked) but I think it was caused by one of the broken teeth on the exhaust cam sprocket which is used by the cam sensor. Which, I think, caused the ECU to advance the timing a lot thus causing the Knock.

The cylinder head was sent to an engineering shop and that the starter turns sluggishly if coil input plug is connected but turns fast if disconnected. It gets sluggish as if the starter is faulty but not.

Thus, this leads me to believe that this sluggishness is caused when the fuel is ignited by the spark plug but there seems to be a disagreement between the piston compression and spark timing thus causing the slow and turns. So, the possibilities of such a problem come down to Incorrect valve timing or bad valve clearance or bad ECU.

The valves have hydraulic cam followers so that is not a biggie. So, we have timing or ECU problems to worry about. Concerning the timing, please look at the live data I got when KOEOff. The RPMs say it is 50 RPMs while the engine was not being cranked.

I will add that the crank pulley keyway way got damaged, and I machined the slot afresh. The bottom mark on the timing plastic cover lies in between tooth number 8 and 9 counting from the missing teeth on the pulley is that fine? Besides that, I do not doubt my timing.

When it was cranked, it got as high as 173 RPMs, obviously caused by the sluggish rotation of the starter thus not fast enough to run the engine. I put a good battery that easily started a diesel truck for the first time into the Opel, no success. Only a few quick rotations followed by many slow hard turns as if the engine is seizing. If you remove the power to the coil (meaning the spark is cut), the engine turns rapidly with no hiccups.

Someone suggested that the cylinder head could have been skimmed too much and the valves clearance is not right. Could I be given the valve clearance specs please? Many I have wiring diagram for the engine management for me check for a possible ECU fault.

Please help.

Sizwe
Friday, November 24th, 2023 AT 3:23 PM

10 Replies

Tiny
KEN L
  • MASTER CERTIFIED MECHANIC
  • 42,949 POSTS
Hello Sizwe,

The two things that stick out to me is low battery voltage which if the voltage drops to low while cranking the system will not work which is probably why you have the low voltage codes, also I noticed the immobilizer has a code so do you have the correct key for it? If so, you will need it reprogrammed to clear the system. After you get a new battery, please take a short video with your phone of the engine cranking over, from this I can tell if the engine is in good condition i.e., timing belt alignment, good compression. After the new battery installation clear the codes. I know you say you have good battery but at 10 volts, which is no good. Let's clear the codes and try again. Let's start with these guides to help:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/car-not-running-advanced

and

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-test-engine-compression

Please go over these guides and get back to us.

Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
+1
Saturday, November 25th, 2023 AT 10:40 AM
Tiny
SIZWE AMOS
  • MEMBER
  • 17 POSTS
Thank you for your quick reply. The live data you see was taken after many attempts to start the car. I swapped a good battery with about 12.48V and same results. The same battery was fitted into a diesel truck, and it started the truck for the first time with no problems.

The engine turns quickly if the coil power supply wire I removed, meaning that the spark would be eliminated but turns sluggishly when plugged back in. To test things further, while I cranked the engine (it was turning slowly). I then unplugged the coil plug and the engine turned fast.

This points to me that either the ECU is not controlling the EST (electronic spark timing), or my timing was off, or the injectors are over fueling causing a vapor lock, but if that would be the case, I would have to check my MAP sensor as this is a load type engine. Or my crank sensor is sending the wrong signal due to a slightly off crank pulley keyway? I do not have a compression gauge but I did lap the valves.

Awaiting your response.
Sizwe
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Saturday, November 25th, 2023 AT 10:53 AM
Tiny
KEN L
  • MASTER CERTIFIED MECHANIC
  • 42,949 POSTS
Yes, if the timing was off (camshaft to crankshaft) it will cause this issue. A compression gauge would help us, or you can upload a short video and I can tell right away if the engine is in good shape or not. You can run the codes as well to see if any are stored but I can tell you it would be rare for the ECU to cause this problem. Also, does the security light flash while trying to crank it over?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
+1
Sunday, November 26th, 2023 AT 11:11 AM
Tiny
SIZWE AMOS
  • MEMBER
  • 17 POSTS
Hello Ken,

The security light does not flash. The car once started, but it ran rough and pinged and was never touched until a few days ago. So, I don't think that we have a security issue.

I did go through the links you sent, and I can say that they are quite extensive. I have attached pictures to help me get the help I need.

I have attached the valve timing picture.
I have attached the picture of the cams also.
I have attached the crank timing picture also.
Please comment.

I then did a voltage measurement of the very critical 5v reference circuit because I was quite puzzled as to why was this car not starting.

When I check the supply voltage to the Crank sensor. It is a 3 wire, Hall Effect type sensor, here are the results:
Pin1= 10mv, grey/black
Pin2= 0.7mv, grey/red
Pin3= 22.3mv, black

Nothing to pin1! There is ground, the signal wire is fine, but no 5v supply from the ECM to pin1. Red flag one.

Two, the purge solenoid connector has no power supply! It should be 12v one side and ground. Ground is there but no 12v supply from ECM. According to a schematic I got for the x16xel, the injectors and the purge solenoid share the same supply wire and the supply wire gers power from the fuel pump relay. So, I will have to check the relay tomorrow. Maybe the crank sensor signal will return.

Three, I got no power to the ignition coil or is the coil switched by the ECM?

CAM sensor 21.1mv Brown C terminal, 5.11v yellow B terminal, 1189v grey A terminal.

CTS has 5.10V, brown/black and Ground, brown.

Knock sensor 29.4mv, black/red ancv40mv, black

MAP 37.8mv, A terminal. 5.12v on C terminal, 44.9mv B terminal.

Idle control valve 0.446v, green C terminal, 11.29v green/white C terminal, 0.445v blue B terminal, 11.29v blue/green A terminal.

Air con pressure sensor has no 5v reference

I kept on unplugging all sensors and checking the 5v on the crank sensor gut got nothing.

I will check powers and grounds tomorrow, but I have my money on a faulty ECU.

Please help.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Monday, November 27th, 2023 AT 9:14 PM
Tiny
SIZWE AMOS
  • MEMBER
  • 17 POSTS
Hi Ken,

I got this schematic for a x16xel engine astra g of which its layout is similar to a C16SEL wiring schematic that shows a Crank sensor wiring layout. It shows that the computer must give me a 5v reference and a 12v supply.

Thanks
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Monday, November 27th, 2023 AT 9:46 PM
Tiny
KEN L
  • MASTER CERTIFIED MECHANIC
  • 42,949 POSTS
Yes, the coil should have 12 volts when the key is on along with the 5-volt references. I don't think you have a security issue either since the light is not flashing. Also, can you upload a video of the engine cranking over or do a compression test? Have you run the codes to see if any are stored?

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/checking-a-service-engine-soon-or-check-engine-light-on-or-flashing

We should do a few more tests before replacing the ECU. Please check all fuses with the systems on as well. The video of the engine cranking over would help the most, use your phone and upload it here with your response like an image.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
+1
Tuesday, November 28th, 2023 AT 9:51 AM
Tiny
SIZWE AMOS
  • MEMBER
  • 17 POSTS
Hi Ken,

The ECU is damaged. The pictures are not that great but clear enough to see, I think.

What are those colorful squares called, processors right?

Awaiting your response.
Sizwe
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Tuesday, November 28th, 2023 AT 8:56 PM
Tiny
KEN L
  • MASTER CERTIFIED MECHANIC
  • 42,949 POSTS
Yep, those are burn marks, you can get a preprogrammed unit by searching Google or Ebay. Thanks for the images and video. Please let me know how it goes after you get a replacement.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
+1
Thursday, November 30th, 2023 AT 9:37 AM
Tiny
SIZWE AMOS
  • MEMBER
  • 17 POSTS
I will keep you posted as usual. I am in South Africa; eBay will take some time (delivery fees and custom duties). I am waiting for a lock set AKA plug and play set.
I thank you.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Friday, December 1st, 2023 AT 3:26 PM
Tiny
KEN L
  • MASTER CERTIFIED MECHANIC
  • 42,949 POSTS
You are welcome, let me know how it goes.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Saturday, December 2nd, 2023 AT 10:30 AM

Please login or register to post a reply.

Sponsored links