Timing/Tuning problem with a CJ7

Tiny
KOEBES
  • MEMBER
I will get a mirror and take a look at it. The other leak behind the carburator I showed on the photographs seems to me more related to a leaking hose connection. That should be easily fixed.

Today I ventured again in changing oil and oil filters, both on the Jeep and the 1986 VW Vanagon I bought 2 months ago. I gave it up because to deal with the used oil became a problem. Now I found out that the garbage collection picks up used oil in the proper containers (they are gallon milk containers with a green top) every week; just place the container and the old oil filter next to your recyling stuff garbage can - gone. No extra charge.

Again, I will take a mirror and look at it tomorrow. BTW, reading all the manuals I found out the 304 must be timed in California 5 degrees BTDC.

Carburator still listed as a work project; how do you cap those vacuum intakes of the engine; can you buy little round wedges or other kind of stoppers or is it "improvise the best you can"?
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Sunday, January 23rd, 2011 AT 2:29 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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OK,

A lot of auto shops take in your used oil, they burn it in special heaters for WARMTH, in their shop.I take it 3 buckets at a time (15 gallons) to a Engine rebuilding company

The California Specs are for Vehicles Designed and Sold for/ in California (their Vacuum line system is usually different than 49 states)

I would continue to tune Your Jeep for the region it was built for. That should make it run as efficient as it was designed to be. Deviations may make it, not run efficient, and Emission testing may show its not burning efficiently (I know little about the way they test)

I like Vinyl Vacuum caps----Rubber ones rot---Next best is "Fuel Line" with a bolt crammed in it!

Most parts stores have them, you might call around to find one with "Vinyl Caps". Many have a "HELP!" Section, the caps there are usually Rubber.

Now, give me a Nice Essay on how things have worked out, What about the Choke door I just went over? Has the recent stuff helped, when are you going to do the carb, so we can finish the choke? How are you running. ETC ETC.I Crave Info!

I'm gonna throw in a Carb Pic with some on it (most were installed on it, to keep the Dirt Daubers out, while it is stored) The Screw being turned is is the idle on a Carter BBD 2 BBL (this is my old carb, I have a 4 bbl on my 258 6 cylinder now). On this carb is the other screw is for the high idle steps (choke related) Your steps are BETWEEN the CHOKE and CARB. There are 2 adjusting screws there, DO NOT MESS WITH THEM, TILL CARB IS TUNED, I WILL INSTRUCT YOU ON HOW THAT WORKS TOO!

The Medic
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Sunday, January 23rd, 2011 AT 3:57 AM
Tiny
KOEBES
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I better copy this test before posting because it was rejected the first time

The choke adjustment:
I loosened the screws until the black housing turned
I touched the throttle: choke closed
Touched throttle again: Choke open
While having the choke open with the throttle fully open rotating the black housing did nothing
While having the choke closed while releasing the throttle, rotating the black housing did nothing.

There is a red mark on the black housing and on the body a prominent line with degrees CCW and CW.
I aligned the red marking with the center line.
I will leave the engine cold and uncranked in case we need to repeat the task
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Sunday, January 23rd, 2011 AT 6:06 PM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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ROG,

The adjustment needs to be made with the throttle held back (open) and engine cold----then tighten the screws. Then Test!

Have you taken the thing apart before?

Your spring may be broke, or just not grabbing the Tab.

It's EZily checked

1) Lay out a towel or something under and around it. YOU WILL DROP THE SCREWS MULTIPLE TIMES!

2) Mark the top of the retaining ring with a marker, they usually only line up with the screws, ONE WAY. And it only springs into the black cap, ONE WAY!

3) Take out all 3 screws. The cap should almost fall off.

This is what it looks like inside. See the TAB in Pic 1, protruding from the aluminum housing, to the right?

The spring has a hook on it, it GRABS the TAB, if it's installed just before the TAB and slightly rotated

(disregard the cap in pic 1, its my MANUAL CHOKE, it takes the place of the spring)

The cap you have will look like PIC 2

Just put it back on, and rotate to catch the Tab, then re-install your retaining ring and screws. Then attempt the adjustment in the previous pics.

Like I said before, I like being in charge of when the choke is on or off, that's why I like a manual choke, I takes time to get used to it. Pulling it is no problem, it's remembering to Adjust/ or pushing it in, after you get to Op-Temp!

PIC 3 shows the cap provided with the manual choke kit, I had to install the shaft in it to the proper depth ETC (instructions), The TAB Just rides in the Forks (Nothing is permanently modified, so you COULD put it back, if you kept your original parts!)

You know, I have a Walmart Album, all about this. Did you see it, still have it, or do I need to re-send it to you?

The Medic
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Sunday, January 23rd, 2011 AT 8:27 PM
Tiny
KOEBES
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Thanks. I will take a look at the spring and report back.

I got your Wal-Mart album about installing a manual choke. Thanks a lot!
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Sunday, January 23rd, 2011 AT 8:51 PM
Tiny
KOEBES
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Took it all off. There was a tab that with a slot where the spring would fit in. I made sure the spring was slotted through that slot.

Now: with the choke closed (everytime I open the throttle the choke stands nearly vertical = open), I turned the black housing CW until the choke barely opened; moved back just a tad. Tightened everything. Now the red marker has moved 3 marks CW.
I hope I did it correctly. If not, I will repeat
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Sunday, January 23rd, 2011 AT 9:10 PM
Tiny
KOEBES
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Took it on the road.
Died twice after starting. Then I could back it out swiftly out of the driveway; minor hesitation when heading forward overcome by stepping on the accelerator. At the first traffic light using "normal" gas pedal action, the car nearly came to a complete abrupt stop with the giant hesitation. Now it is running fine, probably better than ever.

Should I test the electric cable going to the choke?
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Monday, January 24th, 2011 AT 2:03 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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The wire into the cap is nothing more than a little heater, to help the spring warm up faster and the choke come off faster.

Now you sorta know the technique of how it works, you might want to tension it shut a little more than I told you at 1st.

I'd say maybe after 2 miles of driving (from stone cold), it should be standing vertical. Your Jeep is probably at operating temp in that amount of time, and the choke should not still be closed (or even partially closed)

If you are at operating temp and the Door is not Vertical,

Kill your engine, loosen the screws slightly---hold the Throttle arm open, twist the black cap a little, until the "Door" is "just" standing Vertical (w/ just a little spring tension) ----Then release the throttle

Next morning (Do not touch the accelerator) while its cold, open the top (it should be vertical), move the throttle and the Choke should close completely up (full choke, for a cold start). Again get to operating temp and see if it got pulled completely "Off", while it is running (it should be full vertical)

I'm not sure if the wire to the choke, remains "Hot" Constantly, it probably will be as soon as you start up, that would be the time to check it. If not check it after a little warming up.

What about that water pump. You game. Is it the water pump leaking?

The Medic
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Monday, January 24th, 2011 AT 3:50 AM
Tiny
KOEBES
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Let me do all that tomorrow. I'm not sure whether the choke is vertical at operating temperature. Will report back tomorrow.

Bought myself at Autozone one of those mirrors with a telescope handle. Still couldn't see anything. Maybe I need a light under the motor.

But - let's assume for a moment - it is the water pump. I have the tools you said I needed, for $55 or so I can get a new waterpump. If you help me putting it in, and I still have the manuals to make sure we're singing off the same page, I'd be happy to try it.

But - to reemphasize it - the jeep is running better than before. Maybe it's just because I want it that way, but there's more pick up in it.

BTW, did you get the transmission in your wife's car fixed? I know it was not a jeep. I just looked at a JC Whitney catalogue before putting it into the trash and there were transmissions for jeeps - $2,000 and up. I hope the guy at the jeep parts depot gave you a better deal, and I hope you're up on the road again in your CJ.

To me, a jeep is
1. A piece of America
2. A unique experience riding a car without doors and without a roof
3. A terrific way to explore nature by 4-wheeling in the Sierra Nevada

In Europe, having a small French car (a 2 CV), a two cylinder car with a canvas roof and a 2 (two!) Cylinder engine, it was custom among those who drove that funny car, to wave at each other, when they passed on the highway.

Here CJ drivers wave at each other; no Wrangler drivers, no flat fender drivers (very rare, although occasionally you see Willy's like yours), just CJ drivers, and the more you advance from the coast into the Sierra Nevada, the more of them there are
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Monday, January 24th, 2011 AT 4:53 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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We wave at each other too, sometimes the Wrangler guys too. More often, it's hard for me to see them, for all of the Females Gaulking at me and mine. Wife says, I fantasize a lot.

Usually the only "pain" with the Water pump, is Brackets attached to the bolts that hold it on, on some rigs you gotta get into tight spots to get the other bracket bolts loose, in order to move the bracket out of the way to pull the pump. Good pics as you go may help you reassemble if it gets a little complicated.

This is how I put the exact bolt back in it's original spot, label and put in the sequence it was in, this is my tranny and transfer case stuff.

The Medic
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Monday, January 24th, 2011 AT 5:43 AM
Tiny
KOEBES
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Re. Choke:
Drove it to operating temperature, checked position of choke valve with engine running: straight up or 90 degrees.
Will check in cold uncranked condition tomorrow
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Tuesday, January 25th, 2011 AT 1:03 AM
Tiny
KOEBES
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In cold condition: choke immediately fully closed once I touch the throttle. To get the choke to barely open a bit, I have to turn the black housing 45 degrees or more clockwise. Now it wouldn't start.

I think the spring is no longer good.

I also tested the cable. As you can see it's an odd cable: leaves the coil as a 2 mm cable, enters a splitter, and exists as thick 3 mm cable. The voltage at the coil was 12V with the ignition key in the "run" position, and 6 Volt at the connecting clamp for the choke. I am told (youtube) that you must have 8-12 Volts to operate the heating element and the spring.

Here's what I like to do:

- replace the connecting element on the coil: all those cable ends look ragged
- connect the coil to the choke with a 2 mm cable without any splitter or thicker cable in between
- replace the heating element and the spring in the choke.

What do you think?

BTW, to replace a water pump with system flush the local shop wants (with tax) $486.
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Tuesday, January 25th, 2011 AT 10:47 PM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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I'm lookin' at my '71-'90 Chilton 1980 Schematics, The choke wire somehow goes thru a relay and a switch (I just glanced it over quick) IT DOES NOT COME OFF OF THE COIL!

My '77 had no electric choke heater, it used a tube that picked up heat off the exhaust manifold which entered the bottom of the choke housing--yours may still have that PORT on the choke housing. Simple was EZer in my book!

The Coils voltage is Correct, with what you tested. It gets an initial Full Battery Boost off of the Solenoid ("I" Terminal) while the key is in the "Start Position". After it starts, you release the key, "I" dies, and the coil receives REDUCED VOLTAGE, thru a RESISTOR WIRE that comes from the "ON" Position of the Ignition Switch.

For now, Try cracking your Choke open, When it's COLD, see How it does.

When it's not so cold here, many times I will Pump my pedal 3 times, and never pull the choke on (manual choke). It maybe a little cold natured the 1st 3-4 minutes but after it gets warmer, no problem!

I would get yours off of the coil and redo it like it's supposed to be. Or CHANGE TO A MANUAL ONE!

Definitely, Do the water pump yourself. It'll make you feel good, and save some $$$!

Messed with the Carb Yet?

The Medic
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Wednesday, January 26th, 2011 AT 12:08 AM
Tiny
KOEBES
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Looking at those Chilton wiring diagrams for a 1980 jeep I can't find anything that leads from somewhere to the choke thermostat.

Anyway, I am having a hard time finding a replacement for that choke thermostat; one in NAPA parts on line for $37.50 looked exactly like mine; so when I wanted to pick it up at the local NAPA affiliate, the owner couldn't find it; when I called him from home later and gave him the part number, he stated it was for 6-cylinder jeep. I really don't think it makes any difference whether the choke thermostat is for a straight 6 or a V8.

No; haven't touched the carburator yet. Have to get up my courage and first of all get some screwdrivers of the right length that will allow me to work there.

So unless there is a contraindication, I will try to get the choke thermostat for a 6 cylinder from NAPA, install it, apparently the manual should tell you how many degrees it should be advanced or retarded (which I can't find anywhere), then connect it with a 2 mm wire to the coil (wouldn't know where else to, ) and then see how that works
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Wednesday, January 26th, 2011 AT 5:40 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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Most of the diagrams in our manuals are the same, look at a 1980. Look at the diagram with the Distributor and the Ignition Module shown in the center of it. Then look in the BOTTOM LEFT CORNER. It 2 related parts there, and follow a wire upward to a relay. E-1 and B-1, if your diagram is Graphed as mine is.A manual choke would cost you $12 or less! No worries except, remembering to pull it on pushing it off! I still want to explain the HIGH IDLE STEPS, but I want the Choke and Carb adjusted before I do. The steps are between the Choke spring housing, and the adjusting screw is at the bottom of it. There is another screw at top, I think its Something Else. Tell you later, Don't mess with 'em
yet!

The Medic
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Wednesday, January 26th, 2011 AT 3:44 PM
Tiny
KOEBES
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I looked at the Chilton Wiring diagrams: they start with a 1971 jeep and end with a 1986 jeep. There are 3 diagrams for a 1980 jeep, 2 of which are duplicates. The distributor is at the bottom, not center here, and at the bottom left there is blower motor and switch etc.
The coil has a red cable coming in from the ignition switch, and a red cable leaving going to an unmarked device. I can't figure out what the symbol stands for: it's a box with a central line to midline that looks like an inverted T, then space, then a downward curved short line, on top of another vertical line ending in a dark triangle, which outside the box has a triangle on its head, not solid but in lines.
I think this means it a capacitor. Could that be the thermostat?

I know a manual choke would solve my problems; your Wal Mart instructions are well done. Let's see.
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Wednesday, January 26th, 2011 AT 4:14 PM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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"IT'S ALIVE"---MR. JEEP IS ALIVE AGAIN!

I HAVE 15 MILES ON IT, I'M STILL A LITTLE GUN-SHY, I'M WORRIED STILL, IT HAD NO REASON TO LACK OIL IN THE TRANSFER CASE AND SHOULD HAVE LUBRICATED THE OUTPUT SHAFT, IN FACT, I DRAINED OUT THE ENTIRE AMOUNT OF OIL NEEDED TO CORRECTLY FILL IT, BEFORE I DROPPED IT THIS TIME. I HAVE A FRIEND WHO SAYS HE SAW SOMETHING SIMILAR WITH A TRUCK, WHERE A PIECE OF GASKET FLAKED OFF AND COVERED THE HOLE THAT OIL CIRCULATED IN.I'M STILL WORRIED, I PULLED OVER TWICE AND FELT THE OUTPUT HOUSING, TO SEE IF IT WAS HOT.

NO NOISES ALL SEEMS OK

WHAT ABOUT YOUR CHOKE ISSUES, MADE A DECISION YET?

IT WAS 26 DEGREES, WHEN I CRANKED UP THIS MORNING. I DID NOT USE THE CHOKE, 1ST PATTED THE GAS 3 TIMES AND HE CRANKED RIGHT UP. WITHIN A MILE IT WAS RUNNING WELL, WITH NO SYMPTOMS OF BEING COLD (HALF CHOKE WOULD HAVE MADE IT BETTER, FOR THE 1ST MILE), BUT I WAS LAZY, AND I DO NOT "JUMP OUT" INTO TRAFFIC, UNTIL HE'S 100% OPER. TEMP.

THE MEDIC

LOOK, "WILLY" IS BACK IN THE GARAGE!---NOW WE GOT TO GET THE NEON I GAVE $250 FOR, 4 YEARS AGO, BACK OUTSIDE, AND GET WIFE'S ESCAPE'S TRANNY REBUILT (WAY BEYOND MY CAPABILITIES)AND GET IT BACK IN THE GARAGE. WHEN SHE GETS HAPPY, I WILL BE THAT WAY TOO (THATS HOW IT'S EXPLAINED TO ME!)THE NEON IS TOUGH, WE DROVE IT 3 MONTHS OFF AND ON, AND THE 23 YEAR OLD STEP-DAUGHTER, ABUSED IT FOR 4 YEARS, "WHILE SHE WAS GETTING ON HER FEET", AND WOULD NOT FIX HER OWN RIG.
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Thursday, January 27th, 2011 AT 12:46 AM
Tiny
KOEBES
  • MEMBER
Congratulations on your jeep! I admire your color coded machinery; for novices like me: what is the green one?

At least you have a garage to work in. I have to rely on the ambient temperatures and weather.

Just got back from work in San Francisco and I am beat. I don't take a car to S. Fr: you'd go crazy sitting in rush hour traffic for hours; instead I ride a foldable bike to the train station, read and work on the train, and then ride the bike up the hills to my job.

Thanks for your wiring diagram with the explanations; I printed it out, studied it, got lost, and will look at it again with a clearer mind tomorrow.

Do I need a choke in California? We don't have 26 degrees like you guys in SC, but it gets chilly (mostly 40 degrees, sometimes 32) in the morning. It is right now that foggy damp cold, that cuts through everything.

But again: congratulations on your working and running renegade. Now make your wife happy
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Thursday, January 27th, 2011 AT 2:43 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
  • EXPERT
IT SAYS IT'S A GROUND.I IMAGINE JUST BY LOOKING AT THE CONNECTOR, IT LOOKS LIKE WHATS ON THE OIL SENDER AND TEMP SENDER WIRE. SO MY GUESS ITS THE SAME BUT, PUSHED DOWN OVER A "BOLT STUD" THAT IS A ON THE GROUNDED BODY OR ENGINE.

YES, I'D SAY YOU "NEED" A CHOKE, YOU NEVER KNOW WHERE YOU MIGHT WIND UP IN A JEEP.

THE CHOKE KIT COMES WITH A ANGLE BRACKET, THAT CAN BE SCREWED TO THE BOTTOM OF YOUR DASH (YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GO THRU THE DASH LIKE I DID)

IF YOU'RE SCARED, SAY YOU'RE SCARED!

GIVE ME 25, JUST FOR THE HECK OF IT!

AIN'T NOTHING TO PUTTING IT ON, YOU MUST REMEMBER TO DEPRESS THE GAS TO PULL THE CHOKE CLOSED (BEFORE YOU CRANK, THIS FREES UP THE HIGH IDLE STEPS). THEN YOU ADJUST AS YOU GO, IF NEEDED. THEN CLOSE IT, WHEN YOU FEEL IT LAGGING, OR WHEN YOU REACH OPERATING TEMP. HOW HARD IS THAT. YOU MAY NOT EVEN NEED TO USE IT MUCH AT ALL. YOU WILL LEARN WHEN YOU NEED A LITTLE OR A LOT OF CHOKE. IT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU MESS WITH CONSTANTLY.

NOW PERFORM SOME OF THIS STUFF, AND LET ME KNOW HOW IT WORKS OUT.

THE MEDIC
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Thursday, January 27th, 2011 AT 4:10 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
  • EXPERT
SORRY I THOUGHT YOU WERE TALKING GREEN ON THE WIRING DIAGRAM!---THE GREEN IS MY T-150 3 SPEED TRANSMISSION, THE RED-ORANGE IS THE DANA MODEL 20 TRANSFER CASE----DUMMY. YOURS ARE SIMILAR, JUST NOT AS PRETTY!

THATS 100 FLUTTER KICKS.I WILL GET YOU JEEP KNOWLEDGEABLE YET!

THE MEDIC
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Thursday, January 27th, 2011 AT 4:16 AM

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