Timing/Tuning problem with a CJ7

Tiny
KOEBES
  • 1980 JEEP CJ7
  • V8
  • 150,000 MILES

1980 CJ7; distributor replaced; cylinder #1 TDC found, timing notch alligned with TDC; assured distributor finger points to sparkplug #1 cable; timing gun advanced to +8 degrees; at 700 RPM notch alligned with TDC; removing the vacuum cable advances the notch by 5 degrees; increasing RPMs advances the notch quite well. All done at normal operating temperature.

But: when I start the car cold, it starts idling at 100 RPMs or less, slowly advances, overshoots, slowly comes back, but driving the first 5-10 minutes, there is hole you fall into when you step on the accelerator with the car stalling.

I just checked timing again: same as above

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Monday, January 10th, 2011 AT 6:13 PM

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Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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Snow messing me up---8th attempt to send this!---Saved info in "PICTURES"---tired of retyping (hunt and pecking) it everytime!

Let's try this again----SEE PIC!

Maybe It will work this time and thereafter!

"JPEG" is not my friend either!

Not working---back to hunt and peck, with Printer copy of my 4th attempt. Do not have to recompose this time!

I think I've dealt with you before!

You sure you want some Southern, Military, Country Feller Assistance?

Go back to TDC---Plugged and at correct RPM

From this point move the distributor COUNTER-CLOCKWISE---this will throw you toward BTDC

I think that will be downward on your scale, your scale is on the passenger side of the engine.

On your scale "A" is advance or BTDC

."R" is retard or ATDC

If your Submitted info is correct---You should set timing to 8 DEGREES BTDCat 700 RPM (manual tranny)vacuum plugged

If your Initial "GOLDEN BOY" setting is not where I just instructed you to put it.

YOU WERE WRONG!

GET DOWN!----25 Elevated Airborne Ranger Push-ups

If you find a FLAW with my instructions (there could be)---

I WILL GIVE YOU 50!

Vacuum hooked back up?

700 RPM

Problem now--If any?

GOOD OR NOT?

We got more to do for a tune-up

Your Turn

The Medic

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Monday, January 10th, 2011 AT 8:28 PM
Tiny
RACEFAN966
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I would like to know which engine you have in your jeep. What did you connect the vacuum advace vacuum line to to get it to advance when disconnecting it, it should retard when you disconnect the vacuum line. Is the vacuum advaced connected to manifold or ported vacuum, meaning constant vacuum (manifold) or vacuum only when you lift the throttle a bit (ported). Get back to me with what you can and we will go from there.

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Monday, January 10th, 2011 AT 8:49 PM
Tiny
KOEBES
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Okay, here is what happened:
when we cranked the harmonizing balancer towards TDC of cylinder#1, my son stopped at +5 degrees, aftraid to overshoot, and assuming with the timing gun we would get the advance right anyway. He kept the timing gun at 0 degrees, using the **** only to see whether we had to advance or retard by what degrees. He set it at + 8 degrees.

Now we could not clamp down the distributor tight enough; so using a long ruler I marked the position of the vacuum nob with 2 marks in front and behind, and the same with the distributor finger. Once I put the new distributor in, the distributor finger did NOT point exactly where the previous one pointed to, but was advanced clockwise by maybe 3-4 degrees. Distributor cap attached, vacuum hose not attached, car started at by moving the distributor cap and the timing light set at +8 degrees I positioned the timing notch right at TDC.

That's where we are.
Now what you want me to do?
BTW, my timing marks are different than the ones you find in the manual for a 304; there you have TDC in the middle and the degrees of A and R on each side; mine is the one described in the original manual: TDC is at the top and the degrees counterclockwise 5, A10, 15 and (I assume 20; barely identfiable in that narrow triangular opening.

Still unclear what you want me to do

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Monday, January 10th, 2011 AT 8:54 PM
Tiny
KOEBES
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It is a 304 V8; the vacuum line goes to a valve which sits on a top of the engine. THERE I disconnect it with running motor to see what effect adding the vacuum has: it speeds it up. (I nearly lost a finger and the powersteering belt came loose, when I tried to see the effect of no vacuum by removing the vacuum line from the nipple of the distributor).
Anyway, it is tuned without vacuum and adding the vacuum advances it by maybe 5 degrees

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Monday, January 10th, 2011 AT 9:06 PM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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ENGINE NOT RUNNING--Bright light on Timing marks, rotate your harmonic Balancer to "0" or "TDC" (I just want to see it all, does not have to be dead-on) SEND ME A GOOD PIC OF THIS!

The Medic

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Monday, January 10th, 2011 AT 9:30 PM
Tiny
KOEBES
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Unplug first cylinder spark plug as well and wait for the upstroke before doing this?

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+1
Monday, January 10th, 2011 AT 9:42 PM
Tiny
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Gonna have to get Mr. Distributor to clamp down hard, when timing procedure is done----a little snug-ness is preferred while moving it slightly to get it timed

Can you bend the tabs down more or grind off the other end or bend it to get it tighter?

Come up with a plan!

DO NOT TEAR IT UP!

Let me know what you come up with, or send me a pic of what you are gonna do, before you do it!

The Medic

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Monday, January 10th, 2011 AT 9:51 PM
Tiny
KOEBES
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Plan is:
- tomorrow morning I will with the engine not running in neutral crawl under the jeep and move by hand (that'll hurt) the timing notch to TDC
- I will take a photograph of this
- I will mark on the distributor where spark plug # column is
- I will remove the distributor cap
- I will notice whether the distributor is pointing where #1 Column was
- take a picture and send it

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Monday, January 10th, 2011 AT 10:03 PM
Tiny
KOEBES
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I cranked it and it immediately went nearly right on target to TDC. I am afraid should I crawl under the jeep and apply torque with a wrench, it will move in****** and definitely will overshoot.
Looking at the enlarged photo, the mark is right on TDC while the chalkmark is a tiny bit counterclockwise from the notch

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Monday, January 10th, 2011 AT 11:15 PM
Tiny
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OK---If it's running, we should be able to time it, regardless of what's pointing at what!

I'm kind lost on what's happening on your end!

This may take a little while so just stand-by, Imma Hurrying!

The Medic

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Tuesday, January 11th, 2011 AT 12:03 AM
Tiny
KOEBES
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I am a little confused, too. So the next step would be to loosen the clamp on the distributor JUST a tad, disconnect the vacuum tube, start the engine, let it achieve operating temperature, make sure it is at 700 RPM, then with the timing light picking up the charge to the sparkplug of the first cylinder, with the timing advance set at + 8 degrees, I make sure by barely turning the distributor, that the timing mark is exactly at TDC. But I've been doing this multiple times and the problem did not get better. If I did something wrong - great, then this would be the solution, but today when I came back with the jeep at normal operating temperature I disconnected the vacuum, and using the timing gun advanced to +8 degrees, there was the timing notch exactly in the strobe light at TDC. Reconnecting the vacuum advanced it maybe 5 degrees, increasing RPMs advanced it significantly.
So that's where I have been. Where am I going now if I repeat all this?

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Tuesday, January 11th, 2011 AT 12:24 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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I noticed in your pic at the other post (the belt off pic)---a dangling HOSE, what is it?

We gotta have no vacuum leaks. They really will not affect timing, but they will affect engine performance and carburetor adjustments!

If you got lines messed up, or you have "OPEN PORTS, S. UCKING AIR" I may can help you with that too. Need good picks of all of it Carb and all Intake Vacuum Ports, so I can tell you what needs changing!

LETS NOT WORRY ABOUT THAT YET---UNLESS YOU CAN CAP OFF ANYTHING S. UCKING OPEN AIR.

OK, JEEP GUY

WARNING---Your Harmonic Balancer is basically a pulley ring pressed over a "Doughnut" sorta dealee, with rubber filler between the 2 pieces, this dampens crank vibrations, your engine produces. UNFORTUNATLY, your timing mark is CUT into the outer RING. If the rubber filler deteriorates (age, heat) the outer ring could slip slightly, making your mark, not being "Calibrated" to the position of number one piston. If this has happened, it will be impossible to correctly set timing. You should replace the balancer. Usually the only way to make this situation work, is just "Setting it by ear, or Winging it" this is not very accurate, but it will run!

THESE STEPS SHOULD WORK, IF-IF-IF YOUR ENGINE WAS RUNNING (Operating), BEFORE YOU START THESE ACTIONS!

Now that you have all necessary/or wanna keep vacuum lines, "updated" , and any "open" vacuum ports capped. You have checked the manifold and carb for tight fasteners (Bolts that hold it to the HEAD[S]).

IF WE HAVE A PROBLEM----STOP. LET ME HELP YOU, BEFORE SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS TO YOU OR MR. JEEP!

We are ready to Check and move the timing (if necessary). Then we will check your vacuum lines and tune the carbIF YOU WANT TO!

HERE ARE STEPS TO TIMING ---my numbers are here for you to reference me, Just tell me what Numbers you do not understand

1) Let's stick our head under the front end, find the harmonic balancer, and with a soapstone or piece of chalk, rub the timing mark (chalking the groove) and wiping off the access with your finger. It may be necessary to bump the starter to get the mark to the bottom; the mark is at the rear of the harmonic balancer, closest to the engine. It is a straight cut "Groove or Line", perpendicular to the balancer

2) Let's go to the side with the pointer (driver on a 258, passenger on a 304), on the front of the engine. We are looking at the front of the crank, you should see a "SCALE" (timing marks) Shoot some kinda spray (WD40-purple power etc.) On them, and wipe them off good!

3) Observe the scale, you will not be able to see it all (the water pump is in the way, on a 258) but if you move toward the radiator, you will view enough to learn how it works. (You can maybe see it in your manual, too)(Make sure it's your engine, in the manual!) I will not go too far into: ATDC (after to dead center) or BTDC (BEFORE TOP DEAD CENTER) or TDC (TOP DEAD CENTER)

4) The later, BTDC, is what we are gonna deal with, SPARK BEING INITIATED, ---BEFORE THE PISTON REACHES THE TOP---, on COMPRESSION STROKE.

So just any "PACIFIC OCEAN DWELLER" can understand this, we're gonna refer to this stuff as: The very bottom mark is +2 degrees (ATDC, in my 258 pic)---up a mark, --- (ZERO, TDC--Number 1 piston is at very top of travel, When the Harmonic Balancer Mark CORRESPONDS to this mark).

On a 304, "TDC" is Your "ZERO MARK"

5) In this Pic, My Harmonic Balancer is "serviceable"----Timing (not running for the pic!) Is at "ZERO MARK" (Piston is Top Dead Center [TDC]). Mark below this is "2 Degrees ATDC" ALL ABOVE THE CHALK MARK IS--BTDC

On a 304--Everything below "TDC" is "A" (advance) or BEFORE TOP DEAD CENTER (BTDC) we will only be working with this end of the scale!

6) This PIC is Sorta Opposite on a 304, marks are on the passenger side, Actual "NEEDED" Timing Marks are below the "TDC MARK" (both engines rotate the same direction, if an explanation is needed for reason of the direction)

JUST GETTING YOU FAMILIAR, BEFORE WE BEGIN!

WE ARE JUST STARTING!---I AM CURRENTLY WRITING MORE OF THIS!--BE PATIENT----DO SOME SIT-UPS!

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Tuesday, January 11th, 2011 AT 1:22 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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That explanation you just gave made more sense!

1) WATCH FAN!

2)Hook up timing light, Battery and Clip on to # 1 Spark plug wire (Driver side-Front)with "Pick-Up"

3) Attach your Tach or dwell meter---insure you know which scale to use!

4) Get Jeep to operating temp

5) Plug vacuum to the distributor, either take it off at the distributor hose and stick a 1/4 bolt in it----OR----Take it loose at manifold vacuum and put a cap on the manifold T. IT (or short hose with a bolt in it)

6) Adjust Idle speed to 700 RPM on your tach

7) shoot your marks w/ gun

8) Loosen distributor clamp

9) Turn Distributor till it's reading 8 Degrees Below "TDC" or BTDC or ADVANCE

10) If your RPMS CHANGED----TURN IDLE SCREW TO GET IT BACK TO 700 RPM

11) Tweak distributor back to "8" if it changed

12) Tighten ClampCONFIRM IT DID NOT MOVE OFF OF THE MARK

13 TEST) This is a test, you can just hook up and check this, WITHOUT TIMING IT, ANYTIME You want!----THIS LETS YOU KNOW IF THE DISTRIBUTOR "ADVANCES" ARE WORKING CORRECTLY!

14) Reach over to your carb and throttle up slowly, Watch the Marks, they should advance as the Centrifugal Weights move in the distributor (this is Centrifugal Advance operating correctly), If they do not move, you need a distributor!

15) Slowly hook your vacuum line back on, while watching the marks, (ONLY if your line has Suction on it, this can be hooked up to a "live line" just to check out operation) You will see it advance the marks---This is "Vacuum Advance" Operating correctly

YOUR ARE TIMED

INSURE YOUR VACUUM LINE IS HOOKED UP TO THE DISTRIBUTOR

ADJUST IDLE ADJUSTMENT---AFTER THE VACUUM LINE IS ON!---700 RPM

REMOVE YOUR TOOLS

YOU ARE DONE ---STICK YOU WITH A FORK!

HERES SOME PICS---THEY ARE OF MY 258 6 CYLINDER! THE PIC WITH THE TIMING MARKS IS 8 DEGREES, WHAT I SEE WITH EVERY FLASH---REMEMBER MINE IS ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE ENGINE THAN YOURS, MY "BTDC" IS "UP"

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Tuesday, January 11th, 2011 AT 2:09 AM
Tiny
KOEBES
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Just so that there is no misunderstanding: the jeep was running: city, interstate, no problems, even today, except that when started it starts at 100 RPMs and slowly advances to 700 RPMS, sometimes overshoots, sometimes undershoots, but once at 700 RPMs it is doing fine with the idle running that rich low frequency "putputput" of an old V8.
I will take some pictures tomorrow of the carburator, the vacuum hoses, etc.

But as you've seen from the picture, the notch has been marked with chalk, this notch has been positioned at Zero or TDC with an a +8 degree advance by slightly adjusting the distributor, and there it stayed. Coming home today after driving the jeep for 20 minutes or so I verified this. So I am not sure what we are trying to achieve by documenting this tomorrow.

The tube in the previous picture: must have been the vacuum hose detached from the distributor at a cost of nearly the distal part of my index finger. My son, who has worked as a mechanic, was shocked: apparently people DO lose their fingers when coming into contact with the fan of a running motor; here it just banged my finger, but had enough force to derail the powersteering belt

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Tuesday, January 11th, 2011 AT 2:18 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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BOSS,

YOU ARE REALLY LUCKY!---I DID NOT "CATCH" THAT YOU "DERAILED" THAT WITH YOUR FINGER!

BE REALLY REALLY REALLY CAREFUL!

THE DARN TIMING LIGHT HAS FOOLED MANY PEOPLE INTO THINKING THAT THERE IS NO MOTION HAPPENING (STROBE EFFECT)---AND THEY WILL JUST REACH INTO THE FAN TO POINT AT SOMETHING OR PICK SOMETHING UP----LOSING THEIR APPENDAGES IN THE PROCESS

PLEASE BE CAREFUL!

AS FAR AS IDLING DOWN TO 100, THATS HARD TO BELIEVE, ESPECIALLY FOR MORE THAN A FEW SECONDS!

I AM NOT REAL FAMILIAR WITH A 304 HIGH IDLE, I FEEL THAT SINCE IT IS THAT EARLY OF A MODEL, ITS PROBABLY SIMILAR TO MINE (6 CYLINDER) IT MORE THAN LIKELY "CHOKE CONTROLLED" AND HAS "MECHANICAL HIGH IDLE STEPS"THESE ARE NOT REAL HARD TO ADJUST, SOMETIMES THEY ARE "STICKY" AND NEED CLEANING, AND OVER THE YEARS, THEY MAY HAVE BEEN TAMPERED WITH AND ARE NOW OUT OF ADJUSTMENT

I WANT WELL ILLUMINATED PICS OF THE CARB AND CHOKE, PLEASE HAVE A BRIGHT COLORED PENCIL AND ERASER INCLUDED

I WANT THE ERASER ABOUT CENTER OF YOUR PIC----IT'S JUST A REFERENCE, I CAN SORTA GUIDE YOU WITH "CLOCK DIRECTIONS" AND "DISTANCES" FROM THE ERASER TO THINGS THAT NEED ATTENTION, A PIECE OF TAPE WITH A DIFFERENT NUMBER ON THE PENCIL FOR A DIFFERENT PIC, MAY IDENTIFY A CERTAIN PIC. THIS MAY CUT DOWN ON CONFUSION, BIG TIME!

THIS CAN BE USED IN ALL OF YOUR PICS---FOR VACUUM LINES AND SUCH, AS WELL AS CHOKE AND IDLE ADJUSTING!

TO GET EVERYTHING IN UNISON, EVERYTHING MUST BE WORKING CORRECTLY, WE WILL GET VACUUM LINES RIGHT, CHOKE ADJUSTMENTS, THEN "TWEAK THE CARB" FOR MAX EFFICENCYI CAN GUIDE YOU THRU THAT!

I JUST GOTTA KNOW WHATS BEEN NEGLECTED OVER THE YEARS, OR REMOVED

NOW, I JUST 100% COMPLETELY REBUILT MY TRANNY (DID NOTHING TO THE TRANSFER CASE), DROVE IT ABOUT 20 MILESIT LOCKED AT 60 MPH, MY "CAT-LIKE REFLEXES" AVOIDED 2 ROLL-OVERS (PASS SIDE AND DRIVERS SIDE) AS I SLID DOWN THE HIGHWAY

THERE WAS A REALLY LOUD POP, I STILL HAVE TO PULL THE TRANSFER CASE, AND INSPECT EVERYTHING FULLY (REAR END, TRANNY, TRANSFER CASE)

THIS IS HOW FAR I GOT INTO IT TODAY! THIS IS THE "TAIL OF MY TRANSFER CASE"

THIS AIN'T GOOD AT ALL!

DOES ANYBBODY KNOW WHERE I CAN GET A SPEEDOMETER DRIVE GEAR 3.54:1 RATIO AND SHIMS FOR THE SHAFT--FOR A MODEL 20 (DANA 20) TRANSFER CASE? (MINE HAVE SOME SEVERE CHEWAGE ISSUES GOING ON)

THE MEDIC

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Tuesday, January 11th, 2011 AT 4:48 AM
Tiny
KOEBES
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"This ain't good at all"
Sorry to hear it, but you're not right. Could have been worse: you could have injured yourself, and if not, you could have looked unharmed at the wreck of your CJ. So none of that happened, and I am sure, you will figure out where to go from here. They didn't make airborne rangers just out of everyone.

Back to my CJ7: yes, when I start it, it starts idling around 100; usually it dies; I have to restart; either now or before tapping the gas pedal is just like a popping balloon. But it restarts, and just watching the RPM meter it relatively fast approaches 500, still ready to die once you hit the gas pedal, and once it warms up, those hick ups are less felt, barely noticeable unless you are sensitized to them. And then, once it is at operating temperature, it runs fine at 700 RPMs, give and take 100.

So tomorrow I will take pictures although I have no clue what you mean by eraser and pencil.

It is 9:33PM here, way past your bedtime in SC; you have a day time job; there is no urgency; there are enough tune up places here in Walnut Creek, that would be happy to take it from here; but once I start something on my own, I hate to let go

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Tuesday, January 11th, 2011 AT 5:36 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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I really prefer being "IN CHARGE" of my chokes operation---when its on, how much it's on, how long it's on, and when it's off

Older rigs like ours, do not warm up like these newer ones (you are probably spoiled by stuff from the last 20 years)

It takes some time to warm up and you are relying on older mechanical means, which is not nearly as efficient as newer stuff---and that is if it's all still there, not damaged, and working like it did when it was new!

THAT'S WHY I LIKE A "HAND OPERATED, MECHANICAL CHOKE", IF ITS INSTALLED CORRECTLY, WITH NO BIND-AGE, AND IF YOU SORTA LEARN HOW TO USE IT (LIKE GREAT GRANDPA HAD TO MASTER, BACK IN 1935)

NORMALLY WHEN TO "PULL IT, AND HOW FAR" IS EZ. IT'S REMEMBERING TO PUSH IT BACK IN, THATS SO DIFFICULT TO REMEMBER, USUALLY WHEN YOU REALIZE A GOOD 10 MINUTES OF WARM-UP HAS PASSED, AND YOUR RIG SEEMS TO BE "HOLDING BACK"----YOU FIGGER OUT YOU NEED TO PARTIALLY PUSH IT IN, OR PUSH IT IN FULLY!

I GENERALLY HAVE MY "SPOT", I PUSH MINE IN, WHEN I'M SITTING AT THE STOP LIGHT BESIDE THE GROCERY STORE!

I HAVE A WALMART ALBUM, I HAVE MADE SORTA A EXPLANATION OF INSTALLING A MANUAL CHOKE IN IT. THIS IS ON MY 4 BARREL CARB. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE SAME!

OK, IN PIC#8---9 O'CLOCK FROM THE ERASER-2 INCHES OUT THERE IS A VACUUM LINE HANGING LOOSEI WANT YOU TO CONNECT IT TO THE BOTTOM T. IT OF THE "TEE", THE "TEE" IS LOCATED AT 3-4 O'CLOCK 2 INCHES OUT FROM THE ERASER

AT 2 O'CLOCK THERE ARE 2 ORIFICES. THE ONE, CLOSER TO THE ERASER HAS AN OBSTRUCTION, THESE ORIFICES ARE SMALL, YOU MAY HAVE TO CLEAR IT WITH YOUR PINKY FINGER!

I WILL RESEND THE "ALBUM"---WATCH YOUR E-MAIL

YOU CAN'T HELP BUT LOVE ME!

THE MEDIC.

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Tuesday, January 11th, 2011 AT 2:16 PM
Tiny
KOEBES
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Okay, here are the pictures of the vacuum tubes and the carburator

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Tuesday, January 11th, 2011 AT 7:03 PM
Tiny
KOEBES
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Maybe this helps:
Just drove the jeep over the interstate to Danville and I oberved the following: regardless whether cold or hot, if you let jeep stand just a few minutes and start, the RPMs start at 100 and steadily advance to 700 (the needle usually undulates between 600 and 700). But if I am standing at a redlight and turn off the engine and start immediately, the RPM is immediately at 700. So to me it sounds like I am losing something with even short periods of a shut down engine. So it is not hot or cold, it is the loss of something (at least that would make sense to me), which then has to built up to allow the jeep to idle at normal RPM

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Tuesday, January 11th, 2011 AT 9:11 PM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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I'm on a 32" Flat Screen TV (I use for a monitor)

I'm blowing your stuff up 300%----It's really Big!

I think this is a Carburetor Issue or Vacuum issue, Please send a few more picsPassenger side of Carb (front and Top views)

I want a pic of your Mixture Adjusting Screws too, even if you have to bounce it off of a mirror to see them!

Give me a Good Shot of entire engine, standing on bumper, hood laid on windshield, Breather removed and completely off/ out of the way----I want it all, in one shot!

I will be attempting to get you a diagram of your vacuum lines, I do not have access to those "High Speed" one that the "ASE" guys have, I cannot just scan my book and send it here (infringement deal). But wait.I do have a way to get you something, but not thru here. Keep an eye on your mail for the next day or two.I will use subject: Jeep Jeep Jeep Jeep Jeep

Think you can read the diagram and trace out the lines?

If not--I can maybe take it to "paint"-- "Country-fy It" and send it again, if you need me to.

The Medic

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Tuesday, January 11th, 2011 AT 10:29 PM

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