Engine no start

Tiny
HIGHPLAINSHUNTER
  • MEMBER
  • 1977 JEEP CJ7
  • 6 CYL
  • 4WD
  • MANUAL
  • 1,200,000 MILES
Jeep cj7 258 inline 6. Engine no start - vehicle driving down road and died would not start cranked over fine. Found no spark replaced ignition control module (prestolite style) got spark still no start. Could timing chain be the issue
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Saturday, December 11th, 2010 AT 2:55 PM

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Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
  • EXPERT
The Prostolite is not a well thought out system. The darn entrance wires are TEENY WEENY SOLID COPPER and break EZily if they are allowed to flop around. Motorcraft are stranded and the Advance Mechanism is designed better (when the P-O-lite, advance messed up, you never really noticed it, I found it several times, not working, with my timing light!)

The Advance on the front of the distributor (bellows) and the plastic crap within that actually do the the time changing--burst or hang up

Even the Modules--Prestolite and Motorcraft. You can by a BAD NEW ONE. Really helps out when, you tear into it, trying to find another problem!

Autozone and Advance Auto will test 'em for FREE!---I make 'em test 5 or more time in a row to warm 'em up--if they fail get a new oneIt too undergoes the same test.I pulled my hair out a long time. Thinking my NEW MODULE WAS GOOD!

I swapped to a Motorcraft--rebuilt at Advance Auto, several years ago $50--module was maybe $20-$35

It had got to the point a carried a spare Prestolite Distributor with me at all times. Sure they would make the Lifetime Warranty good, but I had to get out of a bind to do so!

I modified my prestolite Dist--its now my oil primer hooked to a drill, drive gear removed, to prime a newly rebuilt engine! (Pic of it beside my Motorcraft)

I can assist you thru a change over with pics and explanations if you like

It wasn't too difficult to wire it up and make it work

Just for "Dookies and Giggles"---shake your wiring while someone elses tries to crank it

I answer most of the CJs here, and I get carried away, with Novel-like---detailed answers and pics

Refer you to other CJ answers I have written--removing the Pollution crap and using only needed vacuum lines (eliminating leaks within the big ole mess from before). And tuning.I know a lot!

Your Turn--I will help till we're BUDDIES!

The Medic
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Saturday, December 11th, 2010 AT 7:43 PM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
  • EXPERT
Here's a couple more--respond with all info related and prior to this issue
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Saturday, December 11th, 2010 AT 8:00 PM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
  • EXPERT
SORRY ABOUT MY MISSPELLING ABOVE, THE OLD UN-RE-VAMPED SITE HAD "EDIT" WHERE I COULD FIX STUFF SUCH AS "BY"--SUPPOSED TO BE "BUY".I USUALLY DO NOT CATCH STUFF TILL ITS BEEN 3O MIN. BEFORE I GO BACK AND PROOFREAD.

ANOTHER POSSIBILITY IS THE COIL

"OURS IS SPECIAL" IT MUST BE/ OR SAY ON IT "FOR USE WITH EXTERNAL RESISTOR"----IF YOU USE ONE WITH A INTERNAL RESISTOR, YOU EXPONENTIATE YOUR RESISTANCE (CUTTING YOUR VOLTAGE DOWN EVEN MORE THAN IT SHOULD ALREADY BE REDUCED, BY "ONE" RESISTOR, NOT ENOUGH TO RUN IT!)---THE WIRE COMING MOST OF THE WAY FROM THE IGNITION SWITCH*****IS A RESISTOR WIRE ALREADY!*****ALSO, YOU GET FULL BATTERY VOLTAGE TO YOUR COIL VIA THE "I" TERMINAL ON YOUR SOLENOID (WHEN YOU RELEASE THE KEY, "I" DIES, AND YOU RUN OFF OF YOUR REDUCED VOLTAGE FROM THE "ON POSITION"

WHERE YOU BEEN? RESPOND

THE MEDIC
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Saturday, December 11th, 2010 AT 9:15 PM
Tiny
HIGHPLAINSHUNTER
  • MEMBER
Had to go an let my son make a deer dead.

I understand and agree the prestolite system is crap but it has been working, know about testing at autozone we had them order 4 and none was good. Found one finally that tested out good and when we hooked that ignition box up we got spark. Also have tested the coil and it tests to specs also. Replaced plugs spark tester shows good spark also removing plug and grounding against block shows good blue spark. We can see fuel going into the carb so with spark and fuel should get fire right? I have gone as far as ether in a couple of cylinders still no fire. Only thing else that we can think of is timing chain slipped -- could be a coincidental thing. When jeep quit in town we tried to pull start which didn't work either. I am thinking that maybe the first issue was the ignition module and by chance when we tried to pull start we may have slipped the timing chain a cog and that is now the issue since we have spark and fuel but no fire.

Back to you medic
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Saturday, December 11th, 2010 AT 11:03 PM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
  • EXPERT
LETS TRY

JUMPER WIRE

POSITIVE BATTERY TO POSITIVE COIL---BY-PASSING "ON" OF THE IGNITION SWITCH

YOU CAN HOOK UP TO THE COIL SIMILAR TO THIS IN MY PIC (NAIL OR SCREWDRIVER)EXCEPT THIS IS "NEGATIVE" COIL THAT I'M PLUGGED INTO WITH MY DWELL METER

I FEEL YOU KNOW YOUR ENGINE, MAYBE YOU JUST MISSED SOMETHING

I'LL HANG WITH YOU AND WE WILL KEEP TRYING

WAS YOUR TIMING CHAIN NOISY?

IS THE HOUSING EXPANDED ANYWHERE, THAT THE CHAIN BULGED IT OUT?

YOUR TURN

THE MEDIC
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Saturday, December 11th, 2010 AT 11:21 PM
Tiny
HIGHPLAINSHUNTER
  • MEMBER
We already tried jumping the coil as you had explained in a previous post. Just cranked no start. Had a ticking sound that could have been timing chain. Not seeing any bulges in the housing.
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Sunday, December 12th, 2010 AT 12:08 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
  • EXPERT
'NOTHER CHECK FOR YOU

FIND NUMBER 1 DISTRIBUTOR TOWER (THE POST THAT #1 SPARK PLUG WIRE IS ON)

WITH A MARKER, SORTA FIND "DUE SOUTH" OF THE POST (DOWN)----MAKE A MARK ON THE DISTRIBUTOR HOUSING SO THAT YOU WILL KNOW EXACTLY WHERE #1 TOWERS' POSITION IS ----IF YOU REMOVE THE DISTRIBUTOR CAP

YOU NOW HAVE A REFERENCE #1 TOWER ON THE DISTRIBUTOR METAL HOUSING

NEXT, TAKE OUT #1 SPARK PLUG

WATCH THE FAN!

SHOVE YOUR THUMP IN THE EMPTY PLUG HOLE AND ATTEMPT TO SEAL IT

"DEER FELLER" SORTA BUMPS THE ENGINE AROUND WITH THE KEY (USE A REMOTE STARTER IF YOU GOT ONE)

WHEN YOU HEAR IT "SPIT" BY YOUR THUMBSTOP THE BUMPING, IMMEDIATELY!

YOU HAVE JUST "SENSED" THE #1 PISTON STARTING COMPRESSION STROKE (ALL VALVED CLOSED, ON ITS WAY TOWARD "TDC". YOUR THUMB COULD NOT HOLD BACK THE COMPRESSION. HENCE THE SPIT!

NOW, WITH A BIG SOCKET AND A PULL HANDLE, GET ON THE HARMONIC BALANCER BOLT AND TURN THE ENGINE IN THE DIRECTION IT WAS TURNING WHILE IT WAS BEING BUMPED AROUND.

WATCH YOUR TIMING MARKS--WHEN YOU GET IT TO "ZERO" STOP MOVING IT!

IF YOU LOOK BACK AT YOUR DISTRIBUTOR---THE ROTOR BUTTON SHOULD BE POINTING AT THE "MARK" OF THE # 1 TOWERS' POSITION-OR DARN CLOSE

IF ITS A WAYS OFF, IT COULD BE THE CHAIN, IF ITS DEAD ON, RULE THE CHAIN OUT. VALVE TIMING IS GOOD

IF MY PICS WENT IN CORRECTLY

THE 1ST IS AT 8 DEGREES BTDC [BEFORE TDC](JUST BEFORE OUR MARKS HIT, TDC, [TOP DEAD CENTER]

THE SECOND PIC SHOULD SHOW "TDC" OR "ZERO"----THERE WILL BE ONE MARK BELOW.2 DEGREES ATDC (AFTER TOP DEAD CENTER)----THIS WOULD BE THE BEGINNING OF THE "POWER STROKE"

(THATS CHALK IN THE HARMONIC MARK----BLACK MARKER[THE MARK, I MARKED FOR ANOTHER POST'S TIMING, 8 DEGREESAND "ZERO" IS ONE MARK UP FROM THE BOTTOM)

HOW CAN YOU MESS UP WITH THIS?---IT MIGHT TAKE A FEW TRIES TO GET THE ACCUSTOMED TO THE DEAL.
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Sunday, December 12th, 2010 AT 12:44 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
  • EXPERT
YO! BEFORE YOU START BUMPING---TAKE COIL POWER LOOSE AND/ OR THE MIDDLE COIL WIRE---SO IT WILL NOT START UP!

THE MEDIC
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Sunday, December 12th, 2010 AT 12:56 AM
Tiny
HIGHPLAINSHUNTER
  • MEMBER
MEDIC, rotor is past 1 post on cap by quite a ways actually past the next post clockwise (the 5 cylinder. I believe our next task will be to take off the timing cover and check the timing chain. I would expect to find a fair amount of deflection. Have seen some videos where when you turn the engine by hand you can actually see the chain skipping.
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Monday, December 13th, 2010 AT 1:37 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
  • EXPERT
NOT -SO-FAST!!!

ANOTHER REASON TIMING MIGHT BE OFF!!!

REMOVE DIST. CAP

GRAB ROTOR BUTTON, ATTEMPT TO ROTATE IT WITH YOUR FINGERS

STERNLY, BUT NOT ENOUGH TO BREAK IT OFF, OR SHELL THE PLASTIC OUT

WILL IT MOVE---AND STAY PUT???...."PLAY CW OR CCW" IS NORMAL...JUST NOT ACTUAL 'TURNAGE'!!!

SHOULD IT TURN, THE ROLL-PIN ON THE DRIVE GEAR, AT THE BOTTOM OF THE DISTRIBUTOR SHAFT IS PROBABLY SHEARED

WHEN THE DISTRIBUTOR IS REMOVED-IT WILL APPEAR NORMAL LOOKING

REALLY THE PIN IS IN "3 PIECES" INSTEAD OF "1"

"2" ARE IN THE GEAR HOLES AND "1" IS STILL IN THE SHAFT

I HOPE AM "DEAD ON"AND YOU CAN FINALLY CONVINCE YOURSELF THAT THE PRESTOLITE IS "BEGGING" TO BE A "MOTORCRAFT"--PRIOR TO BUYING ANOTHER PIECE OF CRAP TO REPLACE IT WITH!!

BEEN AT MY DAD'S BIRTHDAY PARTY--PRESENTLY "STUCK" IN A NURSING HOME FOR REHAB, TILL HE GET STRONGER TO GO BACK HOME. (RETIRED AIR FORCE (20), RETIRED PUBLIC SAFETY (21) (2 AGENT ORANGE RELATED CANCERS.)

SEE THIS ONE OF MINE?
http://www.2carpros.com/questions/1995-ford-f-150-how-to-change-a-timing-gear-on-ford-f1501995-ford-300-6-cylinder

YOUR TURN

THE MEDIC
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Monday, December 13th, 2010 AT 4:11 AM
Tiny
HIGHPLAINSHUNTER
  • MEMBER
Tried the Rotor Idea - no such luck - wouldn't turn so the roll pin on the gear doesn't seem to be sheared. Unless you have other ideas? The thought here is still the timing chain.
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Tuesday, December 14th, 2010 AT 12:37 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
  • EXPERT
Roger.

I tried!

Go back and do the Removed Spark Plug----"Spit thing"

Roll the Harmonic Balancer (crankshaft nut) around (Clock-wise, viewed from the front of the engine)----until you are at zero, with the timing marks

This will have you at the top of the Compression Stroke/ beginning of the Power Stroke

Inside your Gear Index marks should be lined up with each other. IF ALL IS GOOD WITH THE CHAIN AND GEARS!

If you could lay a straight edge center of the Crankshaft and center of the Camshaft----your marks would be in-between, Closest to each other, and on the same line that the straight edge produced

Only one thing that could mess up this Whole Set-up----the Outer Ring of the Balancer, could have slipped on the center ring, and now your timing marks are off (not calibrated to the Key-way of the center ring)

If you order one in from the parts store, you can sorta lay your on top of theirs and kinda see if yours has slipped, prior to buying theirs!

I do not know if you have done this before.

Do not 3 jaw puller the outer ring!

Pull the bolt holes in the Balancers web, against the center of the crankshaft. Protect the cranks bolt hole with a "Puller Button" or a smaller bolt inserted (such as a 5/16 bolt, sloppy in the threads, but sorta flanges over the hole--Push against it, withe the puller)

I can make you a pic of the type puller you need to use. Or just tell me to shut up, you know what you are doing!

While you are changing the chain. This is the time to replace your Crankshaft/ Timing cover Seal

Your timing gear kit will come with "Make-Up Pieces" to replace the Oil Pan Gasket, on the bottom of the timing chain cover ( I will explain it if you request me to)

So what you need is A timing chain set (I use Steel, both gears, it may be a little "Rattle-ee" but it won't tear up like the "Nylon Cam Gear", over time) You really do not hear it except at idle, with your head under the hood!

A gasket kit

A tube of Silicone ( I like black for this sort of repair, keep it warm, in the house 'till needed)

Make sure you do not move the crank!--Its right and lined up on the cover marks!

Move the cam gear to line up only!

Then pull the gears off and install the chain--then gaskets -then cover-then balancer (insure it still on the marks, dry fitting the cover and loosely installing the balancer. Just to verify)

Pull the Balancer on with a Treaded rod, in the crank bolt hole, and a nut made to pull it on, as you screw the nut down---DO NOT USE A HAMMER TO INSTALL IT!

Any of this help?

Want other explanations or tips?

You Turn

The Medic
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Tuesday, December 14th, 2010 AT 3:10 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
  • EXPERT
Sorry still no "EDIT", in which I can go back and fix really stupid sounding stuff!

You may already know what I meant by pulling the balancer "ON"----this is using a special "Threaded Rod" similar to the "ROD" in the harmonic balancer puller (some kits use that same rod to re-install the balancer)

Basically you will be "pressing" it back in place--a little oil would help it slide, along with some on the surface that runs on the seal

When ya'll get done with that, you can come over here and assist me in pulling/ rebuilding/ re-installing my T-150 tranny!

Just got in my missing part(blocking ring for 1st gear) and I am ready to get on it

I must perform a Hostile Garage take over of "Mama's Side" (Willy stays where he's at, that was his problem when I got him, Outside for 45 years--inside for the last 19!) So that I might spend 2-3 days at leisure, rebuilding it, in WARMTH!

How's the project coming along, wherever your location is? Cold?

The Medic

Here's the parts--this is what the garage will look like with the Ford Escape outside ('cept it's a little cleaner now) This was a Hostile Take over to change "Mr. Jeep's" Oil last time. The dang wheelchair has a new home now that my 2 year ordeal with a broken foot is almost over
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Tuesday, December 14th, 2010 AT 8:33 PM
Tiny
HIGHPLAINSHUNTER
  • MEMBER
Okay we got the cover pulled off. There is some deflection in the chain, but its not bad enough to suggest that the chain could have slipped. The timing set has been replaced as the cam gear is a steel one and not the composite gear that came from the factory.

We set the balancer on 0 degrees of what we thought was TDC of the compression stroke. After pulling the cover off the cam and crank gear timing ticks were in a straight line, but the cam gear tick was on the far side and the rotor was pointing close to the #1 plug wire.

From what I understand when the ticks are close together that is where TDC of the compression stroke should be. If this is the case then we are 180 off somewhere, either the timing set slipped exactly 180 (unlikely) or the distributor somehow got 180 out (possibly a sheared cam gear pin as you suggested earlier)

Is my thinking correct on the tick marks needing to be aligned pointing at each other, and if so how is the distributor pointing 180 off of where it should be?
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Wednesday, December 15th, 2010 AT 1:20 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
  • EXPERT
Sounds like you are lined up on Zero, 180 degrees out

(You are at the top of the exhaust stroke or the beginning of the intake stroke)

IF IT WERE MINE, THIS MIGHT STRAIGHTEN EVERY THING OUT!

YOU ARE THIS FAR IN---I WOULD SPEND THE $$$$$ FOR A NEW--SLACKLESS, VIRGIN GEAR SET AND CHAIN

IF IT WILL GO ON CORRECTLY---that is: CRANK--Shaft, then crankshaft gear MARK, Then Camshaft Gear Mark, and then The CAM--Shaft (marks in the center). IF THIS CAN BE DONE.

Without moving a shaft 180 degrees----ALL IS AS YOU DESCRIBED, WITH DIST. IN THE WRONG POSITION. SOMETHING IS TERRIBLY WRONG!

IF YOU HAVE TO MOVE THE CAMSHAFT 180 DEGREES TO GET THE NEW GEARS (and their KEY-WAYS) TO LINE UP---YOUR DIST. IS IN THE RIGHT PLACE NOW!----REASSEMBLE! LETS HEAR IT RUN!

IF YOU DO NOT BUY THE NEW STUFF, TRY THIS:

Mark the 2 marks with a black marker

With someones finger/ Thumb, in the spark plug hole. Really seal it good!

Can you bump the engine on around till the marks line up in the center (that is CRANK--Shaft, then crankshaft gear MARK, Then Camshaft Gear Mark, and then The CAM--Shaft

This can be done with a remote starter, with the key (WATCH MOVING PARTS) or with a "Pull Bar" or "Breaker Bar"

See if you get that "SPIT" when you come up starting the compression stroke

(I cannot visualize the Jeep attempting to run 180 OUT!). Please tell me it spits when you line 'em up in the center (clockwise turn, viewed from the front)

THE ONLY OTHER EXPLANATION I COULD HAVE FOR THE DISTRIBUTOR IS, THE ROLL PIN SHEARED, IT SPUN THE DIST. GEAR 180 DEGREES, THEN IT "STUCK" AT THE OTHER SIDE OF THE PIN HOLE

Or someone snatched it out, thought they were replacing it at compression stroke, but actually put it in on exhaust stroke.I had a buddy show up, he torqued a main bearing cap (without being told to even help) when I went to eat, I came back to find it was on backwards, and now BENT OUT OF SHAPE, it required some TLC and had to be line-bored.I know what might could happen on your end!

I've got the same Jeep you do (1977 CJ5. Better!), 'Cept I put a 2 bbl cam (was a 1 bbl YF carb w/ 1 bbl cam) in it when I rebuilt it, and added the Holley 390 4bbl Carb and Offy Intake

We will get you thru this!

Wanna See My Jeep Mods. Click on me, leave Email in my messaging (private). When I get it I will tell you the process to read and understand the pics!

Respond with something that makes sense. Like you were not on compression stroke but now you are!

The Medic. PS. Am I helping you at all, with my "Country Fixin'" Techniques and Wild explanations?
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Wednesday, December 15th, 2010 AT 2:51 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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ALRIGHTY THEN!

Made this in "Paint", took some time, but at least I can re-use it!

I hope its READABLE, when I stick it in here!

The Medic
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Wednesday, December 15th, 2010 AT 2:55 PM
Tiny
HIGHPLAINSHUNTER
  • MEMBER
We took some pictures to help verify if we are indeed 180 off on the valve timing.

The first picture is of us verified TDC of the compression stroke via your "spit" test.

The second is where our rotor is on the distributor on TDC of the compression stroke.

To us the valve timing looks to be 180 off and then the distributor is also set to be 180 off allowing the motor to have ran when it did.

Can you verify if the timing ticks should be together at TDC of the compression stroke, or is TDC of the compression stroke the way it is showing in the pictures as is setup on our motor. The Chiltons/Haynes manuals do not say where, if ever, the timing ticks should be aligned for TDC of either stroke. Just that they are to be aligned when pulling the set off.
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Thursday, December 16th, 2010 AT 3:01 AM
Tiny
HIGHPLAINSHUNTER
  • MEMBER
Oops missed the rotor picture.
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Thursday, December 16th, 2010 AT 3:02 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
  • EXPERT
Believe me.I'm trying to help!

This looks impossible, unless the distributor has been pulled and rotor was just stuck back in any ole way!

Or the cam gear has been modified to fit the camshaft 180 from the pinpossibility that its not the correct set and someone made it work (can be verified by comparing the holes and key-ways to a new set, as far as position)

You are getting the "SPIT" from #1 plug hole, PLUG CLOSEST TO THE RADIATOR?

The "SPIT" only occurs when the INTAKE AND EXAHAST VALVES ARE CLOSED--this is the compression stroke.

Another possibility is the KEY IN THE CRANK GEAR SHEARED.

OR. THE PIN IN THE CAMSHAFT SHEARED, and THE GEARS are spinning on the Center Bolt or on crankshaft. Without being indexed in

PULL IT AND INVESTIGATE!

The pic I had was from the '79 AMC JEEP SERVICE MANUAL, I modified it in "PAINT" as not to infringe on something/ someone. It is the exact positions that a Gear set should be in. If all is indexed right. There is no need to get the "SPIT"--if everything is rotated into place and the chain captures it all in this PERFECTLY CALIBRATED POSITION (MY PIC). We can move that "SCARY" Prestowrong Distributor wherever you want it to be as far as: location of rotor to #1 wire

Am I talking too stupid for you, or can you follow my "TECHNICAL BACKWOODS TERMINOLOGY"?

My Wife doesn't understand me most of the time!

Your Turn---pull the gears and see if they still "PIN IN"

The Medic
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Thursday, December 16th, 2010 AT 3:38 AM
Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
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Could it be possible that the CAM INDEXING PIN has given a problem in the past.

Maybe the hole in the cam was "Wallered Out" and the pin would not stay secure in it original hole?

Then some Rocket Scientist, decided to drill/ use a NEW HOLE----180 across the Front-End of the cam. Then the Gear was rotated 180 to install on the new PIN/HOLE. This would leave the CAMSHAFT still in the Correct/ Calibrated position. Only the position of the gear/ alignment mark would have changed. And "IT" (the cam gear) doesn't care WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE, AS LONG AS THE CAM LOBES ARE CALIBRATED to the Crankshaft, and when it starts turning. Everything follows along in that same order at the same time!

Do you see any evidence that maybe something has changed with the Pin/ pinhole?

The Medic
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Thursday, December 16th, 2010 AT 3:24 PM

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