1986 Chevy S-10 TIMING MARKS CAN'T BE ALIGNED

Tiny
RONREYNOLDS
  • 1986 CHEVROLET S-10

Engine Mechanical problem
1986 Chevy S-10 4 cyl Two Wheel Drive Manual 180, 00 miles

I recently had newly remanufactured Jasper engine (2.5L, F.I.) Installed in my truck. Installer told me it had no timing tab and that they set it by ear. Not good in my opinion; I'm a long time auto and do it yourselfer. I contacted and discussed with Jasper who sent them one and they installed it. Installer now says pullies must have been changed and it can't be timed with a light. Just turned it back to me that way. Went to a mechanic friend. We positioned top dead center of #1 cylinder and a made a mark on crank pulley at timing scale. When engine is started (and runs fine) the timing mark on the pulley (using timing light) is Way, Way off the scale. No way to accurately set timing. Could problem be the original distributor that's in new engine (or what)? Been at engine problems since 12/3 when installer received new engine; told me it was ready New Year's Eve at 5:34. Told them no transportation to get there. Picked up 1/4 with all kinds of issues I've been working out myself. Installer is no help. Committed to fixing it myself with other help. Have been iin close communication with Jasper who says distributor is the only thing left. Help? Ron

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Friday, January 29th, 2010 AT 12:25 PM

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Tiny
MERLIN2021
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Did you do this? IGNITION TIMING 1. Install timing light with adapter between No. 1 spark plug and No. 1 spark plug wire, or use inductive pick-up. Do not puncture wire. Run engine until it reaches normal operating temperature. 2. Electronic Spark Timing (EST) must be in Bypass Mode to check ignition timing. Ground terminal "A" to "B" at Assembly Line Diagnostic Link (ALDL) connector. 3. Place transmission in Neutral (man. trans.) or Drive (auto. trans.). Set average timing of cylinders No. 1 and No. 4 to specification. Adjust if necessary.


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/62217_GMOBD_I_1.jpg


Set to 8 degrees BTDC @ 650 rpm

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Friday, January 29th, 2010 AT 1:42 PM
Tiny
RONREYNOLDS
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Friday, January 29th, 2010 AT 2:28 PM
Tiny
RONREYNOLDS
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Thanks for your reply. 1) We used an inductive timing light; not connected in series between the plug and wire. Did not puncture wire. Engine reached normal operating temperature. 2) I don't know if my friend (the mechanic) bypassed the EST and grounded the terminals "A" and "B" at the ALDL connector but I will ask. 3) Manual transmission was in neutral. I don't understand: "Set average timing of cylinders No. 1 and No. 4 to specifications". We were dealing only with cylinder #1 and could not get the timing mark on the crankshaft pulley to come any closer than several inhes from the timing index scale bolted to the block. As for "average", I don't follow unless you're referring to the timing mark on the pulley fluctuating and using that fluctuation range within which to take an average against the index scale. Is that correct? I will ask my friend about that also. I also had no idea that #4 cylinder was to be involved at all. I will pass all this to him and one of us will get back to you. Thank you. Ron Reynolds

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Friday, January 29th, 2010 AT 3:41 PM
Tiny
RONREYNOLDS
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I checked with my friend and he says everything was done that you brought up in your answer. You didn't say, but my information also asked if my old, original distributor which is now in the new engine could cause this? I did provide a new ECM from O'Reilly's Auto Parts when the new engine was being installed.

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Friday, January 29th, 2010 AT 6:30 PM
Tiny
MERLIN2021
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Eithe the distributor, or maybe the timing marks on the chain are off? If you set number one to TDC, mark on the crank should line up with the pointer, and number one should be firing according to the rotor in the distributor, another possiblilty is you put the pointer in the wrong place, how does it idle? Run? Is there a performance issue?

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Saturday, January 30th, 2010 AT 8:18 AM
Tiny
RONREYNOLDS
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Hello Merlin; The 2.5L engine does not have a timing chain; it has gears. 1) Could they have been installed incorrectly by Jasper and cause this? I would think that was impossible 2) Many years ago (I've had truck for 18 years) I had A/C installed on the truck from one in the junk yard. Mine came without air. After new engine installer first gave me the truck back after new engine was installed, they said that it had no "timing tab" and they "set it by ear, and the tabs are impossible to find". I know better. At another point one mechanic told me that it "broke off" and he felt bad about it. Offered me no way to correct that. I called Jasper who sent installer one; I took truck back and they installed it. Still could not time the engine with marks on the pulley; now they say puliey must be wrong (from the truck in junk yard with the A/C) because mark on it won't line up with the index tab. ***** Setting it by ear does make it start, run and idle fine with no performance issues; other than idles too high (850rpm) and no way to lower it (manual adjuster is all the way). ***** Some people would be satisfied with this; just to do it by ear and get it fairly close. But with a new eigine, and all the additional parts I've put on, I cannot accept it until I can get the marks to line up and time it right. (New parts: radiator, water pump, starter, alternator, plugs, wires, dist. Cap, various sensors, water temp senspor, PCV valve, coil, oil sending unit, etc. Virtually everything except distributor. NOTE: We did set #1 TDC and MADE a mark on the pulley, within the timing tab scale bolted to the block. When started and running, THAT mark is several inches away from the timing tab. ***** I do NOT know if this is the proper place and way to reply to you. I find no instructions on 'how to use' the 2carpros site. From my screen, I see two possible ways, but neither one is clear. Can you direct me where to find out how to use this site? HELP? Thank you. Ron

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Saturday, January 30th, 2010 AT 12:20 PM
Tiny
MERLIN2021
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EXPERTEC TSB TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN Reference Number(s): 89-143-6A, Date of Issue: 03/31/89 Related Ref Number(s): 89-143-6A ARTICLE BEGINNING INSTALLATION OF TIMING - INDICATOR/SET Model(s): 1985-89 Chevrolet/GMC S, T, M Truck With 2.5L (VIN Code E) Engine Bulletin No.: 89-143-6A Date: 03/31/1989 SERVICE INFORMATION TO: ALL CHEVROLET DEALERS When completing the assembly of a partial engine, please be aware of the following: 1. 1985 and 1986 2.5L truck engines - " The side-mounted timing indicator and plate assembly with attaching studs, as shown in Fig. 1 , should simply be transferred to the new partial engine. 2. 1987 through 1989 2.5L truck engines - " The set screw, as shown in Fig. 2 , needs to be removed from the new partial engine assembly. Apply Loctite (R) 242 or equivalent to the set screw and reinsert into the block. The set screw should be seated flush to the boss surface. This step is required for two reasons: A. The set screw is loosely threaded into the partial engine block as shipped from GMSPO and B. The threaded hole breaks out into the coolant jacket and requires application of a sealant to the set screw to prevent a coolant leak. This step must also precede installation of the air conditioning compressor support, as shown in Fig. 2 , if so equipped. BULLETIN ILLUSTRATION LIST Fig. 1: Graphic Fig. 2: Graphic


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/62217_ti_1.jpg



http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/62217_ti2_1.jpg


Maybe this wasnt done? Timing for any engine is arived at by the factory on an average of 10 engines and where the run best, it does not mean some engines will NOT run better at different mark! Could an 87 indicator been installed on your engine?
You are replying the right way, just click on the answer question button at the bottom of a question.

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Sunday, January 31st, 2010 AT 7:22 AM
Tiny
RONREYNOLDS
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***************************
WOW WOW WOW! Merlin, I think you may have hit the target, my friend. This is Sundy and I've not been able to reach my mechanic friend, but will talk with him as well as Jasper Engines tomorrow. All along Jasper has been saying (according to the local installer who is not trustworthy) that there is only ONE timing index plate for the 2.5L engines. Your bulletin information proves that wrong. The indicator NOW on MY 1986 engine is clearly in the front, as the diagram shows is for 1987-1989 engines. The area shown in the diagram for the 1985-1986 engines is side-mounted, on the driver's side of the engine and would place the index in the area where the pulley mark has been appearing with the timing light. I'm praying very strongly this is it! Will let you know for sure what I find out. In the meantime, as I'm restoring my truck (I've had for 18 years). 1) I want to add gauges instead of just the idiot lights. I've located a gauge cluster on ebay which says it's for an 8 cylinder. Do you know if it will work (or can be configured) with my truck, being a 4 cylinder? My truck did not have A/C from the factory; I added it about 16 years ago and have simple lived with the engine dying at idle due to the compressor drag not being compensated for. Recently my same mechanic friend ran a wire from the computer to a place on the A/C and now the engine doesn't die from too low RPM when idling. Can something similar be done with the gauges to make them work? 2) Finally, we've been unable to lower the RPM below 850 (with the plug removed for the manual adjustser, which is adjusted all the way). I want to lower it to the 650 range that's proper. What do you think it would take to correct it? If your answers prove correct, I'd like to send you a special bonus (in addition to the donation I've already made) if you can let me know your email address or phone. Mine is 423-899-2074, and REYNOLDSRA1@AOL. Ron

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Sunday, January 31st, 2010 AT 11:26 AM
Tiny
MERLIN2021
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I believe the 8 cylinder panel will work OK, most testing equipment adjusts to test 4/8 or 6 cylinders.
Email is
merlin2021@comcast. Net
I will look into the idle adjustment for you and get back to you. Also take note that the pulleys are different as well?

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Sunday, January 31st, 2010 AT 1:00 PM
Tiny
MERLIN2021
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HOT (SLOW) IDLE RPM 1. Remove air cleaner and gasket. Plug TBI unit vacuum port for THERMAC (Thermostatic Air Cleaner). Remove T.V. cable from throttle control bracket. Connect tachometer to engine. 2. Disconnect Idle Air Control (IAC) connector. Start engine and warm to normal operating temperature with transmission in Park (auto. trans.) or Neutral (man. trans.). 3. Install Air Passage Plug (J-33047) into throttle body idle air passage. Ensure plug seats air tight. See Fig. 2 . 4. If plug covers throttle stop screw hole, remove plug by drilling 5/32" hole through casting into plug. Using 1/16" punch, remove plug. 5. Using Torx Bit No. 20, turn throttle stop screw to adjust slow idle to specification. Turn off engine and remove air passage plug from throttle body air passage. 6. Install T.V. cable into throttle control bracket. Install IAC connector. Seal throttle stop screw with silicone sealant. Install air cleaner and gasket.


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/62217_spec_2.jpg



http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/62217_tool_2.jpg

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Sunday, January 31st, 2010 AT 1:08 PM
Tiny
MERLIN2021
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Reply to your email: Hello Merlin; Thanks for the reply; you said "I believe the 8 cylinder panel will work OK, most testing equipment adjusts to test 4/8 or 6 cylinders. ". 1) (a) I wasn't intenting to ask about testing equipment. Did you mean to say that the truck instrument clusters/computer will adjust to gauges when changing from a panel with instrument lights, and from 8 to 4 cylinders or visa versa? Or did you really mean "testing" (diagnosis) equipment. Just a little confused on that one. (B) I'm considering whether to change the original cluster (with lights instead of gauges), or to leave it and simply add gauges elsewhere. Your thoughts about it? (By the way, I've just ordered from Amazon the "Equus 3140 Innova Diagnostic Code Scanner for OBDI and OBDII Vehicles". So I'm dead serious about all this.)
2) You said also that "the pulleys are different as well". Do you mean that those for 1986 are different from those for 1987-1989 like the timing plate? And if so, how? It's my understanding that I still have my original pulleys. Not sure exactly what you mean there.
3) I went to the link you gave about "diagnostic tools", and will certainly read it thoroughly. Was that intended to be someting more specific than just help with diagnostic tools in general; or was there something I asked that I don't realize; or something specific you intended?

This truck is my only transportation. I do have a 1971 Dodge Charger that I've had since 1978. (Not running) It sat outside, then in a barn for the last 20 years. I want to get it restored at some time.

Please forgive me if I ask too many questions. With all I've been through with this about my truck since the middle of November ( 2 1/2 months so far), and all the failures of communication, sloppiness of the installer, etc, I just want to be certain that the good information you're sharing with me is completely understood and properly applied; I highly respect your knowledge and your willingness to help. To not be thorough with what you say would be to waste your time. To me, it's exceptional to have you helping me, after having gone through something like you'd see on TV, 20/20, 60 Minutes, etc. With all the trouble I've had. I haven't even shared half of it with you.

Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Ron Reynolds
Ron I am saying it should work. And as far as the pulleys, look closely at the diagram I sent and you will notice they look different in it. Dont actually know if they are, but I think they are!

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Tuesday, February 2nd, 2010 AT 1:05 PM
Tiny
JBEAMS2
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I found this somewhat interesting, as I have just bought from a friend a 1985 Chevrolet S10 pickup with a 2.5L engine. My friend, replaced all the sensors, distributor, he even bought a new exhaust manifold, and gave me the receipts, for the truck.
I replaced, the new exhaust manifold, intake manifold gasket, oil change (oil looked and ran like molasses), new oil filter, new valve cover gasket, new plugs, new antifreeze. Got everything together, fired it up, ran 20 minutes, then died. Timing was way off, timing was on the far side of the engine, on the passenger side.I felt bad. Called my dad, he sent a mechanic over, mechanic tells me, this is what we are going to do, we need to pull the distributor, remove half the radiator shroud, remove the fan blade,
so you can get to crankshaft pulley bolt, your going to get a socket for the bolt, 1/2 sq drive breaker bar, remove the valve cover, so you can watch the rocker arms, going up and down, because the engine has to be reset to Top Dead Center. Before the distributor can be placed back into engine. Once everything else is done. And the engine is reset, then the distributor is put back in, the valve cover is put on, and the fan blade is on, and the shroud is on, then the engine, should start, and the timing can be set.
My Dad's mechanic, (thanks Dad!), Said this should have been done, when the original owner replaced the distributor, but he didn't. And how in the world did you ever get it started?
Beats me. But, I soon learned from his mechanic, anytime, you replace the exhaust manifold, or intake manifold or throttle body gasket, this has to be done, the 2.5L engine is very temperamental, and, the engine need s to be reset to Top Dead Center, and the distributor reinstalled. My Dads mechanic also gave me a Haynes manual for my truck, covering 1982-1990 Chevrolet S10/ Gmc 15 and blazer and jimmy trucks, a supplemental section covers the 2.5L engines.

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