Water, condensation and severe ice problems on the inside my car windows every winter

Tiny
TESSAB
  • 2010 HYUNDAI ELANTRA

Manufacturers have insulated the roof. Is this a real solution?

I have a new car that I have only had for 14 months now. Every winter the inside gets FULL of ice on the windows. And I mean thick ice. It starts with condensation all over the windows in the fall, then turns to frost, then by December I wake up to thick thick ice covering all my windows on the inside nearly every day. After defrosting and running my car for 20 minutes, I have a stream of water running down the inside of my window that lands on my dash.

It is BAD. Long story short, the manufacturers know there is an issue and we want to pursue it. As a last resort they have insulated the roof of my car. Before putting in the insulation they took pictures as there were water drops and condensation all over the place up there. Now they have put in the insulation.
My question is, is that a real solution? Or a cover up? They haven't found the problem or where the moisture is coming from. Won't the moisture still get inside and get in the insulation and eventually cause mold or something similar? I feel like they haven't fixed the problem and this will come back to bite me later.

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Sunday, January 29th, 2012 AT 2:48 PM

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Tiny
CARADIODOC
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Moisture was a common problem on all cars many years ago but not as bad as you descibe it. The most effective cure came when manufacturers designed the air conditioning to run whenever the defroster was on. That condenses the humidity out of the air before it gets blown onto the cold windshield where it would condense.

I have a 1980 Volare that had that problem on long winter trips. The car came without AC. I had a similar '78 LeBaron with AC. On that car, you could see the condensation evaporate from the windshield within five seconds of turning the defroster on. If your car has factory-installed air conditioning, check to see if the compressor runs when the defroster is selected.

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Sunday, January 29th, 2012 AT 3:18 PM
Tiny
KVN4
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Two things to have them do. First, check a/c drain tube, I believe you have a water leak somewhere in car, are floors wet at all or even damp. What they have to do is remove interior including carpet and water test it.. I say this as I did water leaks for a multi car dealership and had to constantly do all kinds of cars and trucks. So what they did is a cover up. Good luck and let us know ho you make out. If they have a good tech at this they should find the leak in about an hour. Have them do same with trunk area too.

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Sunday, January 29th, 2012 AT 5:45 PM
Tiny
MHPAUTOS
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I agree with Kvn4 moisture not being drained away from the heater A/C will condense on the screen and freeze in extreme conditions, Here in Aust we do not have as a rule such cold conditions, but what we get in more humid conditions is when you turn on the A/C you can get a dense fog cloud coming out the vents.

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Sunday, January 29th, 2012 AT 11:45 PM
Tiny
TESSAB
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They have done several tests, I'm not sure what exactly. But I will clarify that they have done all these things you suggest. I know they took out all the seats and heated the car in some way and tried to get the moisture out. They had my car for a few days that time. As far as I know they have checked the A/C and vents and all these things. And they did a smoke test (?) To find a leak but didn't find one.
So I guess it's agreed this is more of a cover-up. But if the insulation does prevent any ice from building up on the inside, do you expect any problems could arise from having the roof insulated? Like I said, maybe mold or something? If there was that much water in the ceiling (I saw the pictures he took), would the insulation need to be replaced ever?
Thanks for all your answers!

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Monday, January 30th, 2012 AT 2:16 AM
Tiny
KVN4
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Ask to see ro ticket the tech used on back they punch time taken on repair and description of what they did to car, bet they wont show you. Lol. The whole lower interior including carpet has to be removed. Along with trunk interior. Are you carpets wet. Now it needs to be water tested really good, ive found leaks can take five minutes to five hours to appear. The people testing dont get paid for all their time spent on diag for test as the factory only gives crap time pay out for it. If they cant find leak you go to another dealer thats close, call hyundai factory, with the interior constantly wet you run risk of mold, early rust out of floors, corroded wires (which could short out), and other problems. Lemon law comes to mind also.I say this as I have been there done that for water leaks for over 12 years so I know what im talking about. Let me know how you make out as im interested in what the dealer had to say to you. What state are you in by the way

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Monday, January 30th, 2012 AT 11:32 AM
Tiny
KVN4
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With the severe icing inside car tells me they didnt remove carpet or dry it out, I guarentee they didnt do a thorough diag.

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Monday, January 30th, 2012 AT 11:47 AM
Tiny
TESSAB
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I'm in Ontario, Canada. There is a process called CAMVAP, similar to a lemon law. It's a mediation process and they could decide to order the manufacturer to buy it back.

One of the conditions is to go through their head office/customer care center prior to filing for CAMVAP. So after the local hyundai shop couldn't find anything, we called head office. It was their idea to do the roof insulation.

They all know we know of this process and we have mentioned it to them. It's definately not something they would want to go through with, so I can't imagine them not doing the proper tests? All the parts and service done to my vehicle has been free of charge every time.

Now that they have done this roof insulation, it makes me feel like they're covering up and by the time more serious problems occur, they will be off the hook and it will be too late for me to go through with CAMVAP, and I'll be stuck with this car that has all these problems.
I totally agree it could lead to rust and corroded wires like you say! It's me and my mom dealing with this and I feel like they know how to string two women along. Now with this roof insulation working (on the surface of it all), I don't know what to say or do! I don't know if I can continue to go to CAMVAP if the ice doesn't reappear. And when we've asked them about the insulation causing future problems, they obviously just tell us that it will be fine.

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Monday, January 30th, 2012 AT 2:13 PM
Tiny
KVN4
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I cant see insulating the headliner would even do anything for even slowing the condensation in car but to make sound quieter when it rains. The interior has to be removed to find the leak as when warmer weather rolls around the jute under carpet is going to stink so bad you wont be able to sit in car for very long. You are correct to as they are stringing you along until warranty expires and then you are on your own with the problem. Does your car have a electric moon roof.

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Monday, January 30th, 2012 AT 3:42 PM
Tiny
TESSAB
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There WAS actually a small amount of ice on my front and back windows today. It has only been 5 days since the insulation was put in. So I'm not sure it's working to be honest. I guess I'm trying to get some feedback in case it does.

There is no sunroof.

I just attached 2 pictures the mechanic took. One showing some of the water they found in the roof, and then one showing the insulation he added.
Thanks for all your input!

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Monday, January 30th, 2012 AT 4:10 PM
Tiny
KVN4
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That has nothing to do with stopping a leak other than sound proofing roof. Bring the car back and demand it to be fixed this time or you will retain a lawyer for them to do a buy back. As I stated before the inside interior has to be removed including the trunk and water tested. DONT take any excuses for their BS. You are getting the run around as usual from any dealer as they dont give a sh$$ because they already got paid for car. Like I said the warranty pay is crap from factory to dealer for the repairs they submit and they just cant be bothered with the time to properly diagnose the problem because they are there to make money.

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Monday, January 30th, 2012 AT 4:42 PM
Tiny
TESSAB
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Will do, thank you!

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Monday, January 30th, 2012 AT 9:30 PM
Tiny
KVN4
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You are very welcome. Please let me know how you make out with this. Dont forget be mean and stand your ground. You can tell them all my replies on what they need to start with. Good luck

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Monday, January 30th, 2012 AT 10:19 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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Kvn4, you have a very one-sided opinion of car dealers. I worked for many years for a very nice family-owned Chrysler dealership, one of four dealerships they own, and you are exactly one hundred percent wrong on how they treat customers. They understand that a satisfied customer is a repeat customer. Very many people, including my ******, did not come in asking for "a salesman". They came in asking for Bill B. By name. He's been there since the 1980s and is always busy with someone in his office. We sold a lot of cars to people from out-of-town because we treated them well for a previous repair. You will get similar results from our local Buick / GMC dealer, Cadillac dealer, Toyota dealer, and the former Ford dealer. Only the Chevy dealer is disreputable and he, like GM in general, has a hard time finding repeat customers.

Tessab, you do not have to get angry with your dealer. Do you really think if they knew what the fix was, they would refuse to do it? Of course not. They want a happy customer as much as you want your car fixed. Of course they are under time constraints, just like doctors, plumbers, and accountants. To NOT have time limits would be an irresponsible way to run a business. Chrysler only allowed us one hour to diagnose an electrical problem. Normally that was plenty of time, but with all the ridiculous, unnecessary computers on cars now, some problems needed more time, and they always granted more time as long as you requested it first AND could show you were making progress. If you couldn't show that, they got other, more experienced mechanics, or their in-house troubleshooters involved to help out. They had a number of systems in place to insure their customers were satisfied. As far as customer-friendly manufacturers, General Motors, Volkswagen, and BMW are at the very bottom of the list. In my opinion, Hyundai is at the very top of the list, Toyota is next, and Chrysler is third. If Chrysler is so concerned with customer satisfaction, you can be certain Hyundai is too.

There's no harm in discussing a vehicle buyback, but the instant YOU get angry with the people who are trying to help, you make them an adversary instead of an advocate. They have absolutely nothing to gain by not fixing your car, or giving you that perceived "run-around". And when it comes to problems like this, there is no set time limit. Standard operations are listed in their labor guides. That's what kvn4 is referring to. As an example, a set time is given for replacing a water pump on a specific engine in a specific model. The time allowed might be listed at 3.0 hours for cars out-of-warranty but 2.6 hours for a car in warranty. Those in-warranty times assume all the needed tools are at hand, new parts are sitting nearby at the ready, and NO air tools are used. Out-of-warranty times provide allowances for rusty nuts and bolts, and less experience by the mechanic because he is working on different car brands and problems every day. Dealership mechanics see similar things every week and as a result, we get real good at meeting the designated times. Those times, in or out-of-warranty do not include the previous diagnosis time, the time the mechanic stands in line at the parts department to order the parts, the time he spends at the computer checking for service bulletins, etc. With in-warranty repairs, no one has to argue with a customer who is angry they have to pay for expensive parts and services. The dealer can just order the parts that are needed without worrying about the hit to the wallet of whoever is paying the bill. All the manufacturer is asking for is an accurate accounting of where that money is being spent and whether it is going to solve the problem.

With the type of problem you're having, the is absolutely no way anyone can calculate a "book time" to complete the repair. So to suggest the dealer isn't going to try to fix the car because they "already got paid for selling you the car" is ignorant at best. If this is a known problem with this model, you can be sure the manufacturer is working on a diagnosis and cure. That can lead to a voluntary recall, but not until the cure is found. If this is a one-of-a-kind problem that the manufacturer hasn't run into before, it's going to be real hard to diagnose the problem over the telephone.

The next thing to consider is politely asking for a meeting with the district representative. Most manufacturers have a system similar to Chrysler's. With them, the district rep. Visited each dealership once a month to check on the service department and to meet with customers who had problems the dealer couldn't help with. To keep a lid on expenses, something our ultra-rich politicians know nothing about, dealerships have a strict set of rules they have to follow. As with any other type of business, there are exceptions to every rule. The manufacturer's representative grants those exceptions, not the dealer. We had money provided by Chrysler to use at our discretion to pay for out-of-warranty repairs when the dealer felt that was the proper thing to do. Those funds were limited though, so they were reserved for regular repeat customers, hardship cases, and people who had more than their share of problems while their car was still in warranty. You can be sure that money wasn't wasted on angry customers. The feeling was you're going to be angry no matter what we do so you might as well pay the bill too. When the district rep. Gets involved, he has the authority to permit the dealer to do whatever is needed, and to reimburse their expenses. That has nothing to do with that out-of-warranty fund provided by the manufacturer.

To begin the process, the district rep. Is going to look at your car's repair history and the history of that model in general. He will have access to experts who can provide advice. He might even take your car to a different dealership for you. With GM, lemon law buybacks were simply donated to community colleges. They just gave up on them. As an instructor, I was involved with a few of them. With Chrysler, buybacks MUST be repaired, whatever the cost, then they go to an auto auction. As my dealer's only suspension and alignment specialist, I was involved with two trucks that both came from a different dealership that couldn't solve the problem. The district rep. Thought I was a genius after I fixed the first one, and a magician after I fixed the second one;... That is until I showed him the 32 page service bulletin I followed. Once I read that, the second truck took less than an hour, (and no parts), to fix. The original dealer couldn't fix the problem because they never looked for a service bulletin. And no one would EVER have solved the problem without that bulletin because the cause would not have had the same effect on older trucks. In fact, I worked with another fellow for three days on the first truck we had that problem with, (at 80,000 miles), and we accidentally identified the cause by just giving up and replacing random parts. THEN we looked for service bulletins, and there it was in black and white!

Remember that the dealer doesn't want you to have a problem with your car. They want to fix it so you'll be happy with their product. And all dealers understand that it takes more advertising dollars to get one new customer than it takes to keep ten current customers coming back. Why do you think GM has so many ads on tv? Making you dissatisfied is the equivalent to losing ten new customers.

The minute you get angry, or "mean", as kvn4 suggested, you just switched teams with the dealership. Now you'll be seen as the enemy and you can expect to be treated as such. You can be firm. You can "hold your ground". But you can do that in a cooperative manner. If you can't get help from a district representative, I'm sure there will be some type of resolution department you can contact. Their information is typically found in the owner's manual or possibly online. My dealer would even get the ball rolling by contacting them on your behalf if they thought you had a legitimate complaint.

When it comes to requesting a buyback, I never heard of anyone getting a lawyer involved. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means that in my case, a lawyer wasn't needed to do what customers could do themselves. Lawyers, which are mostly members of one political party, make one person give money to another person, then take a huge cut for themselves. You shouldn't need to give up that cut. What you should be expecting though is you will not get the full price back for your car. As I recall, they will look at the miles and age of it and deduct an amount similar as if you had been renting or leasing it.

As an alternative, you might ask about trading it in on a different model. This is especially effective when the dealer says there's nothing wrong with the car. That happens mostly with road noise and wind noise. All cars are so extremely quiet compared to '70s and '80s models that we can hear little wisps of air flowing over windshield wipers and mirrors, and some people just can't put up with that. If the dealer says there's nothing wrong, or it's "the nature of the beast", it's going to be hard for them to change their tune when calculating how much to allow you for it on trade.

One last point to think about; if I understand correctly, you have water dripping from the ceiling. That is proof you do not have a water leak. Water doesn't run up. I've worked on plenty of cars that had water sloshing onto the floor from plugged air conditioning drain tubes. My own brand new '93 Dynasty had a severe water leak from the left rear door after I messed up the water shield after going nuts with rustproofing compound. We all know the horrendous problem Ford has with defective GEM computer modules from water leaking into them from windshield leaks. In all those cases, there has never once been any mention of water on the ceiling or anywhere else up high. To have water on the ceiling, you have to have a condensation problem. It's no wonder the dealer hasn't found a leak. There most likely isn't one.

Look at any car in the salvage yard that has the trunk open. You could raise fish in the pond in the trunk, yet there's no water on the ceiling. My first new car, an '80 Volare that I still own developed so much condensation on the inside of the windshield and all the other windows during the two-hour trip to college that I had to carry a rag with me to see where I was going. The harder I ran the defroster, the worse it got because I was blowing more humid air onto the cool glass. Still never had any condensation on the ceiling. My ****** had an almost identical '78 Lebaron, but it had air conditioning. After the windshield fogged up and you turned on the defroster, the AC turned on automatically and within five or ten seconds you could watch the fog disappear. THAT's why I suggested at the beginning to be sure the AC is running when defrost is selected.

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Tuesday, January 31st, 2012 AT 5:25 AM
Tiny
TESSAB
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I wasn't saying I would get angry, I'm saying I'm going to be more firm and put my foot down. I got this car in October of 2010. November we had made a complaint to them. It is now January 2012 and I am still dealing with this. We have been very pleasant AND patient throughout this whole process.

And I agreed with you earlier in that why would they not be trying to find a solution. I know they are. But the next morning after putting insulation in my roof we called them to tell them it didn't work. I had ice all over my back and front windows. His response? "Well that's normal, you need to wait for the moisture to run out." How long am I suppose to wait? That's not only my problem, but should be there's too.

And yes, originally, we had requested a trade. Same model, just a new car. They weren't having it. So now after all this work, stress, and time, I don't want a trade. They can take it back at this point.

We have called their customer service and referred to the back of the manual. We were told not to contact customer service directly but to deal with the dealership and they will communicate back and forth on my behalf. Well. When we forward pictures to the dealer to go to head office, and he takes 8 days to forward them. It gets a little irritating. This needs to be solved before winter is over, and they know that. But to take a week to forward an email every time?

I also drive around with a roll of paper towels in my car. And the AC does run with the defrost, as you suggested. But what is your professional opinion on the insulation? You haven't said whether you think that's a viable solution or not and what future problems that may or may not have. I would appreciate your feedback. The only information I can find on the internet about roof insulation is that it soundproofs. I can't find a thing on condensation/water problems. I can't even research it.

Again though, I have been very nice throughout this entire thing. When they took my car to put in the insulation, they scratched up my driver side door. There is NO way they didn't see that, and there is NO way the person who did it didn't know they did it. But I called them on it. Now my car is scheduled to have body work done. I didn't get mad, I laughed. Because this is just getting insane. But do you think I got an apology for it? Nope! Do I think my big burly male neighbor who would likely get a little bit mean would get an apology? I think he would have!

But all jokes aside, I would appreciate your feedback on your thoughts on the outcome of the insulation.

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Tuesday, January 31st, 2012 AT 2:02 PM
Tiny
KVN4
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Insulation is for sound deadening. Like I said the seats, carpet trunk interior has to be removed and a proper water test be done.I bet under the carpet is soaked. Bring it back and put your foot down. Ill get back about me being mean to dealerships and the factories.

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Tuesday, January 31st, 2012 AT 3:51 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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Most cars already have an insulating pad above the head liner for sound deadening but I'm not sure what to think about condensation. The roof and that insulation are both going to be cold when you hop in and start the engine, so blowing humid air up there is still going to lead to condensation. That doesn't happen in your house in winter because the temperature is constantly kept higher to prevent that from happening. Seems to me the only thing that roof insulation will do is make the car easier to warm up inside and reduce the effects of the cold sheet metal on the inside air. That should reduce condensation while driving, but only from that one source. You still have cold windows, and it's rather impractical to insulate them! As long as you have those cold windows, it's like adding a foot of insulation to the walls of your house and leaving a door open.

There's no getting away from cold areas in the car. We've had them as long as we've had cars. We've also had to deal with humidity in the air before. Given all the things that have been done already, it's time to start thinking outside the box. I still have to assume there isn't a "pattern" failure with this car model or more people would be complaining, so we have to look for something wrong that is not related to the vehicle design. Either too much water is getting in, being vaporized by the heater, then condensing on everything cold, or water that normally gets in is not getting out through normal means. Most notably that would be the condensate drain tube for the air conditioning system. I think it's safe to rule that out because if it was plugged, you'd have water spilling onto the passenger front floor when cornering in the summer. Also, that drain tube isn't going to be blocked with debris when the car was only a month old.

There could be a leak allowing water into the car, but in my mind I ruled that out because you should only have a problem when it's raining or when melting snow can run in. I had a coworker with a '72 model car with a windshield leak that was so bad, he had an actual snow drift in his back seat every time it snowed and was windy. He still didn't have a condensation or water problem. If your car had a water leak, you would be seeing water on the floor in the summer.

After thinking through all the logical possibilities, the only thing I can come up with is going to sound weird at first, but my reasoning includes the problem was there since the car was new, the problem is not related to the design of the car, and the water is getting in too easily or is not going out easily enough.

The only thing I can come up with has to do with the fresh air ventilation system. After rereading your original post, I see the ice is on the windows in the morning before you even start the engine and run the heater. That means the water had to be in the car the night before. There has to be some evidence of that somewhere, typically under the carpet which you'd think would be soaked. I've had ice and snow on my floors all the time in winter, and it stays there until I drive far enough for it to melt and evaporate. To condense all over your car, it had to be liquid the day before, and warm enough to vaporize.

All of this kept bringing me back to one thing. When you bought the car, did you pay extra to have it rust-proofed? If you did, that can add a new variable to your car that others of the same model didn't leave the factory with. In particular, if you look under the hood or in the cowl vent area in front of the windshield, you will likely see a place on each side where rain and snow can run off onto the ground, but the fresh air intake is opening is in there. Some mechanics think they're being conscientious by going nuts with extra rust-proofing material, and I could see a drain area getting blocked. That might allow water to build up high enough to run into the fresh air opening. We saw a Ford Escort with about seven gallons of water sloshing back and forth in that area at the rear of the engine compartment because of blocked drain areas so it's not hard to imaging that happening to other cars.

Next, there are going to be places for stale air to leave the car. Some manufacturers call them "diffusers". On my Caravans they're called "exhausters". They are plastic vents that are popped into holes cut out in the rear of the door openings above the latch strikers. If those are covered with rust-proofing, it would be harder for moisture-laden air to leave the car. When my Dynasty was delivered, I pulled out the seats and carpet to go wild with rust-proofing inside and out. I used 14 quarts of material instead of the normal two. Because I was familiar with the body construction, I pulled out the exhausters so they wouldn't get coated. While spraying into one area of the car, mist and fumes came out of those exhauster holes, so you know those places could get blocked if the mechanic goes overboard with the amount of material used.

I know this sounds like I'm grasping at straws, but it's obvious we're looking for something unusual or out-of-the-ordinary. What you might try is leaving a window open about a half inch on each side of the car overnight to see if that has any effect. If the amount of ice is reduced, that will provide a clue or observation that might help in coming up with a fix.

I didn't realize you already went through the steps I mentioned previously. Perhaps it is time to enlist the help of a lawyer, but I suspect the only positive result would be the satisfaction of proving your case. I don't think I'd expect to come out ahead financially. For sure having a lawyer involved isn't going to get the car fixed if no one has been able to do that already.

I've never owned a Hyundai, but from everything I've heard from some high-level instructors in their classes I've attended, they are the very top manufacturer when it comes to being customer-friendly. That's my opinion not because their cars are built better than anyone else's, but because of their business practices that directly positively affect their car owners. I shudder to think how much worse you would feel if you had been dealing with General Motors on an issue like this.

One last comment just to make you aware, when a car was long out-of-warranty, even by years, Chrysler would take care of it as long as the problem was documented while the car was still in warranty. At the dealership I worked for, they kept a paper copy of every repair order including the new vehicle prep from before the car was sold, for at least seven years. They were happy to pull the folder for your car to prove that problem existed previously. They don't enjoy handing you a repair bill but it is necessary for someone to pay that bill. They'd rather hand it to the manufacturer to avoid the misery to your wallet. You can be sure your complaint has been well-documented. I don't know how other manufacturers handle previous complaints once their cars are out-of-warranty, but I'm betting Hyundai is WAY better than GM and at least as good as Chrysler.

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Tuesday, January 31st, 2012 AT 7:57 PM
Tiny
KVN4
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Did you have an aftermarket alarm put in or could you have accidently left a window not completely closed. Do you hear wind noise when driving. Is car parked on an incline and in what direction it faced.I ask these questions whenever im given a car with water intrusion. So lets start there.

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Tuesday, January 31st, 2012 AT 8:57 PM
Tiny
TESSAB
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The car was never rust-proofed (not that I paid extra for anyways).

And my car is parked facing North, but it shares a driveway with 3 other vehicles that never have this problem. I take pictures of these cars occasionally too, for more documentation.

Since I last posted on here, my car has iced up 3 more times! So I am no longer concerned with having to prove why I would be unhappy with the insulation, as it is not even covering up the problem like I thought it might.

They are out of ideas so we know what steps we have to take now. I thank you for all your input and concern!

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Saturday, February 4th, 2012 AT 7:05 PM
Tiny
MEGANALLEN
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I know this conversation happened 7 months ago, but what was the final out come. I have the same car and am having water problems as well and keep getting told there is nothing wrong with the car. January I will be out of Lemon Law's time frame.

Since I bought my car I thought the transmission wasn't quite right. But dozens of people told me that is how Hyundai's were. My car shouldn't shake when you are coasting at 35 MPH. But that's another issue.

During this past winter I noticed my windshield making this creaky/ ice cude tray noice on the passenger side, and I was getting into the car after a good rain/snow and there would be water lines down the inside of the windshield.

I took it to the dealer and they said that the seal around the windshield was cracked. They had the glass people come out and re-seal the windshield.

Not too long after that it started making noise again. This is also when I realized the passenger-side floor was soaking wet. I also started having a problem with my CD's skipping, and when I would take them out they would either be super hot or wet. So I took it back. The seal had cracked again. They replaced the entire windshield and also the stereo. (They detailed the car as well)

Not long after all of this, it started making noise again. I took it back again. This time they tell me there is nothing wrong with the car. So I take it to another dealer to see what they say. Of course they also tell me nothing is wrong with it. (Windshield or Transmission)

So needless to say I am one repair away from falling under the Lemon Law but all they tell me is that there is nothing wrong with it.

Any thoughts?

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Thursday, August 9th, 2012 AT 4:50 PM
Tiny
KVN4
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What type car do you have. Do you have a sunroof

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Thursday, August 9th, 2012 AT 5:48 PM

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