I have 92 ply Voyager turns over fine

Tiny
JOEY FITZGERALD
  • 1992 PLYMOUTH VOYAGER

I have 92 ply voyager turns over fine. No spark at coil. Don't have momentary 12v or 12v at start.

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Saturday, October 27th, 2012 AT 10:33 PM

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Tiny
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Do you mean no 12 volts at the ignition coil or injectors during cranking or for the first one second after turning on the ignition switch? If that is correct, swap the automatic shutdown (ASD) relay with another relay like it such as the AC compressor relay, then see if you get voltage on that circuit. If not, remove the relay and check for voltage on terminal 30 or 87. Sorry, I can't remember which one but one of them must have 12 volts all the time. If neither has it, a fuse is blown. If you do find it, feel if it is clicking when a helper turns on the ignition switch.

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Saturday, October 27th, 2012 AT 11:10 PM
Tiny
JOEY FITZGERALD
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I have tried recently to get an answer, I tried go back to an older question that was asked a couple of days ago. And I don't know if I should repost the whole thing or tryy to get an answer modified?

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Sunday, October 28th, 2012 AT 9:35 AM
Tiny
JOEY FITZGERALD
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I had already swapped the asd relay and no luck but did not check for volts.I'll give it a try and let you guys know.I also checked the fuses, @fusible links. They all checked out ok.I was curious once the ecm gets all it's info, does it then and allow the asd to operate?I guess what I'm asking what power source feeds the asd, and ecm? What pin #on the ecm receives 12v? Or how much volts should present? And on more than one pin, thanks guys

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Sunday, October 28th, 2012 AT 9:58 AM
Tiny
JOEY FITZGERALD
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On the asd relay, #30 has 12v, #86 has 12v/w key in run poss, #87 out To inj.@Coil.#85 should be grnd? Right? Using a conuity tester I don't have any. If I use a jumper to neg batt the asd works. How and where does #85 get it's grnd?

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Sunday, October 28th, 2012 AT 3:20 PM
Tiny
JOEY FITZGERALD
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I think I found it, pin #51 on the ecm. So I guess that there might be a problem with the ecm.

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Sunday, October 28th, 2012 AT 3:45 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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The web site changed last week to a new format and the site host is having a huge problem with sending out automated e-mails letting you and me know when a reply is posted. What I've been doing is right-clicking then opening each new question I read in a new tab, then I leave those tabs open so I can refresh them later to see if a reply was posted. Unfortunately I have well over 100 tabs open and it has slowed my really old computer to a crawl. If it went any slower it would be going backward! It is common to take 5 - 10 minutes to switch to a new page.

Don't start a new question as that will just make it worse. I started getting a few automated e-mails this afternoon. I noticed both of yours came through. On the site they are listed as you replied last night, but I just got the message at 1:12 p.M. Today. Hopefully this will be fixed soon, then I may get flooded with hundreds of replies to answer. Sleep is over-rated anyhow.

As for your ASD relay, the 12 volts on terminal 30 is correct. That is the feed for the switched current to the injectors, coil pack, fuel pump, alternator field, and oxygen sensor heater. The 12 volts from the ignition switch to terminal 86 is also correct. That feeds the coil inside the relay. Terminal 87 does indeed need to be grounded but that is done by the Engine Computer. You can't measure that circuit for continuity. All you can do is watch its operation for that first one-second blip when you turn on the ignition switch. The easiest way to do that is to monitor the voltage we've been talking about from relay terminal 87 which goes to the injector, coil, etc. The second way is to feel if the relay clicks on, then clicks off one second later when a helper turns the ignition switch on. The third way, which is more time-consuming, is to place the probe of your test light on terminal 85 while the relay is installed, AND since you're testing for a ground, you have to move the test light's ground clip to the battery positive post. This way the test light will light up at the same time the relay is energized.

If any of those methods proves the relay is turning on for one second, that proves the circuitry is good and the computer has control of the relay. If the switched 12 volts shows up on 87 it should also be showing up at the coil and injectors. If it's at 87 but nowhere else, there has to be a break in that wire or a corroded splice.

Once you verify the 12 volts is showing up at the coil and injectors for one second, the next thing is it has to reappear during engine rotation, (cranking or running). If it does not, the computer isn't grounding the ASD relay terminal 85 because it doesn't know the engine is rotating. That is because a signal is missing from the cam or crank sensor or both. A scanner that displays live data will show both of them as "no" or "present" during cranking so you know which one to diagnose. If one signal is missing, suspect the sensor, its air gap, or a break in its signal wire. If both signals are missing, suspect a break in the 5, 8, or 10 volt wire that feeds both of them, a break in their common ground return wire, or the feed wire is shorted to ground by a pinched wire or shorted sensor. That feed voltage should be present all the time the ignition switch is on. If you don't find it at either sensor, unplug them and measure on the plugs after turning the ignition switch off and back on. If the wire or either sensor grounded out that feed line, the computer shuts that power supply down to protect it. Once the short is removed, you have to cycle the ignition switch off and back on to reset it. Missing the supply voltage to the sensors is not very common so we'll address that later if it becomes necessary.

Just for information purposes, you need 12 volts from the ignition switch to relay terminal 86 AND the ground on 85 to energize the coil inside the ASD relay. That is a double safety circuit and is extremely reliable and effective. In a crash that ruptures a fuel line, the engine can't run without fuel pressure so it stalls. That means no pulses from those two sensors so the computer turns the ASD relay off. That removes the 12 volts going to the fuel pump, or, on some models it also turns off a separate fuel pump relay along with the ASD relay. Either way the pump stops dumping raw fuel onto the ground where it would be a fire hazard. That wire between the computer and terminal 85 is only a few inches long but if it somehow got pinched or someone tried to modify it, the relay would still get turned off by turning off the ignition switch.

Unfortunately there is no easy way to know if the pulses are being received by the computer except with a scanner.

If you do find steady voltage at the coil and injectors during cranking, that indicates you have a less-common problem with one of the three individual circuits, the ignition coil, injector circuit, or the fuel pump. Of the three a dead fuel pump is the most likely suspect. You won't hear it hum for that one second after turning on the ignition switch. The coil pack would be next. You would have no spark but you would have good fuel pressure and you'd smell the raw fuel. If all the injectors were dead, suspect a break in the common wire feeding them from the ASD relay. Failure of one driver circuit in the computer is rare, and a total failure of all four, six, eight, or ten is unheard of. More commonly that would be caused by a blown fuse feeding the computer.

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Monday, October 29th, 2012 AT 9:49 PM
Tiny
JOEY FITZGERALD
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Hi, and thanks for the info.I'm going to try to find the problem as you have suggested. Sorry about the repeets, and sorry to here about the computer problems, and missed sleep too.I have only a couple of other questions, 1 what fuse #feeds the computer.2 and which #s fuses feeds the cruise control, radio, overhead console? Thanks again for all your detailed help.I'm really glad your Web site is here, if I had either the techno or the resources to help I surly would. Once again thanks and I'll try not to bug you so much. Joey

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Wednesday, October 31st, 2012 AT 4:08 AM
Tiny
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There are multiple 12 volt feeds for every computer. Pin 9 is the 12 volts from the ignition switch "run" position. That circuit taps off and goes to fuse 14, a 2 amp, for the cruise control. That all comes off the ignition switch which is fed through an orange fuse link wire by the left strut tower. Pin 3 has 12 volts all the time. That circuit is tied in with the feed for the ASD relay, (16 gauge red / white wire). If that's missing, there's a 22 gauge white fuse link wire by the left strut tower. The other side of the ASD relay feeds the injectors and coil(s), and it goes to pin 57. That tells the computer it was successful in turning that relay on. Looks like those terminals are the same for all three engines.

Fuse 3, a 20 amp, feeds the power mirrors and radio memory circuit. That should be live all the time. If that fuse blows, suspect frayed wires between the driver's door hinges. Fuse 6, a 10 amp, is the switched 12 volts for the radio.

For the overhead unit it would be easier if you tell me what's not working. There's so many circuits feeding it for all the different lamps and rear vent windows that it's hard to follow. I see a 30 amp circuit breaker in cavity 25 but it just shows it going to a connector but it doesn't say for what.

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Thursday, November 1st, 2012 AT 9:35 AM
Tiny
JOEY FITZGERALD
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Hi guys had to take a day off. On the overhead console question it doesn't have fuel economy info, or compass info
The lights work but that is it.I went to the junk yard and
pulled one off another van I also pulled the two sensors that are in front of the radiator. But I'm not sure what's what.I installed the new console and a body control module, to no avail. So I thought it might be fuse related. But also not sure which sensor too install or if that's it. Also the two rear window open/closers work. The answers give me a direction to head in now on getting it running. Also unrelated to the van I've a question on a 2003 dodge ram 1500 v6 3.7ltr? The Speedo does not start working untill you reach 35, 40mph. How do I fix that? Also the brake@abs lights are on. The man said he installed new power booster, master cyl, and pads. How do I reset the system, if that's what it is? Also its unknown if, and when the Trans filter was changed 118456 mi. It should be of the ordinary. Changed shouldn't it? It not slipping or doing anything out of the ordinary. Once again thanks and I'll get that donation off in the next day or so. Joey

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Saturday, November 3rd, 2012 AT 6:13 AM
Tiny
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If the display is dead, that would mean a 12 volt feed or a ground is missing, but I can't find anything that would cause that if the lights are working. The only switched circuit is the tan wire but that has to be okay because it's the feed for the power vent windows.

You can also look at the two data buss wires. Those are the violet / brown and white / black next to each other in the connector. Those aren't needed for the lights and vent window motors but they might be what tells the display to turn on. The data buss signals come from the Body Computer.

If you have dashes in the display, the unit is working but that indicates a problem with the sensor. That should only affect the outside thermometer though. If the sensor is unplugged, the display should say "OC" for "open circuit".

For the speedometer, look at the speed sensor in the tail housing of the transmission. Look for stretched terminals in the connector although that will usually cause intermittent operation at any speed, not at a specific speed all the time like you indicated. Look at the plastic gear on the end of the sensor, (if that's the design they're still using), to be sure no teeth are worn down. A more likely cause would be the sensor itself has a partially-shorted coil of wire inside and must be replaced. Signals generated this way are a result of the strength of a magnetic field, the size of the coil of wire the voltage is induced into, and the speed of movement between those two. If the coil of wire becomes smaller, as in when it's partially-shorted, you'll need more speed to overcome the weaker signal that is induced into it.

The red brake warning light is due to low brake fluid level in the reservoir, the parking brake pedal isn't fully released, or there was unequal pressures in the two hydraulic circuits. First pull up on the parking brake pedal. If the light goes out the cable is stretched, misadjusted, or more commonly a cable by either rear wheel is sticking partially-applied. The switch on the parking brake pedal could be damaged too. Don't waste your time trying to bend them straight. Find a good used one in the salvage yard.

Unplug the level sensor on the side of the master cylinder reservoir. If the light goes out and the fluid level is okay, the float has sunk or the switch is shorted. If the level is low there is either a leak that must be addressed, the front pads are worn, but you said they're new, or the fellow didn't fill the reservoir after bleeding the system.

Unplug the wire from the combination valve on the frame, under the master cylinder. If the light goes out, the valve has tripped from unequal pressures. That can happen during improper bleeding procedures or when a leak was in one of the systems. That valve is spring-loaded but it often gets stuck. Once the condition that caused the valve to trip is fixed, it is sometimes necessary to jar it loose with a few hard, quick jabs on the brake pedal.

Don't worry about the yellow ABS warning light yet until the red one is solved. It will be on because the ABS Computer can't guarantee proper operation when there's some other problem with the base brake system pressures. Once the red one is off, you'll have to turn the ignition switch off and back on to reset the yellow one. If the yellow one stays on by itself after the red one is off, a problem has been detected and reading the stored diagnostic fault code will get you into the circuit or system that needs further diagnosis.

The transmission fluid is typically supposed to be changed every 36,000 miles. Mine on my '88 Grand Caravan has been changed once in 237,000 miles, at around 90,000 miles, and I use it to regularly drag around a tandem axle enclosed trailer that's bigger than the van. That is no longer neglect. That's abuse, and I don't recommend that to anyone.

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Saturday, November 3rd, 2012 AT 8:53 PM
Tiny
JOEY FITZGERALD
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I was researching in the Hayes repair manual, about the Trans and couldn't find anything on the sensor or gear.I'll crawl under today tho see if I can locate it. If you can attach a pic of what it looks like would be appreciated. Also I see for 2003-2008 Haynes manual they list a 4, 5, 6 speeds. Mine is a four speed I would like too put in a six speed. Is it possible with the 3.7? If so what all do I get from the salvage yard, computer, wiring, flex plate, more? And what motor and year? What identifying #s. Thank you Joey

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Sunday, November 4th, 2012 AT 2:37 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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I messed up with that gear. I was thinking of a rear-wheel-drive van I had replied to earlier. With the 4-speed, you have an input speed sensor and an output speed sensor. The Transmission Computer calculates road speed by the programmed-in tire size and axle ratio. It sends that information to the Body Computer which interprets it and sends it to the instrument cluster.

Don't even think about switching to a different model transmission. We run into enough trouble with the same model from different years. The computers will be different among many other things. Beginning on various models in the early 2000s all car manufacturers switched to the new "CAN Buss" system. That's a different type of computer signal and is not at all compatible with older computers. The Transmission Computer is needed for the transmission it's designed for, then you'll need the newer Body Computer which tells all the other computers when to turn on. You'll need the newer versions of every single other computer including the instrument cluster, (which won't fit), Air Bag Computer, and Anti-lock Brake Computer if you have one. All the connectors will be different so you'll be cobbling all new wiring harnesses.

The mounts are going to be different too to match the newer body designs.

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Tuesday, November 6th, 2012 AT 10:14 AM
Tiny
JOEY FITZGERALD
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Ok I was hoping I could get a few mpg's by switching. Well I guess that's a no go. Any way how do I fix my Speedo prob, change input, output sensors? Computer?I finally got my check I'll transfer some through pay pal real soon. Joey

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Tuesday, November 6th, 2012 AT 2:58 PM
Tiny
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There's two speed sensors on the four-speed transmission. If either one doesn't produce its signal, the Transmission Computer will default it to second gear. If your is shifting properly, the sensors are working. That means the Body Computer or the Transmission Computer aren't sending the speed information out on the "data buss". That's the pair of wires all the computers share information on. There could be a problem on the instrument cluster too but that's not real common.

You'll need a scanner to see what's going on. It will display the road speed the various computers are seeing. If that is correct, the problem is in the cluster. Most scanners can also run a gauge test. That will run them all up to 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and full scale. That will show if the gauge is working.

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Wednesday, November 7th, 2012 AT 6:56 AM
Tiny
JOEY FITZGERALD
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It dawned on me with asking about the 6 speed. Did you think I wanted to put it into the van?I was thinking about putting it a(6 speed automatic), from say some 2008 3.7 litr, 6 speed auto, to replace the one in the 2003 3.7 litr, 4 speed auto dodge 1500ram.I thought since the years and same motor were kind of close I would able to make the computers work together.
I know I originally started asking about my 92 plym voyager, and started asking questions on the 2003.I guess shouldn't have asked them in the same paragraph. Also on the 92 the two sensors in front of the radiator, is the upper one temp sensor for the overhead console or the lower one? And the lower one temp sensor for the cooling fan? And where does the (overhead con.) Get its info on the compass, north, east, ect, ect, from? Thank you sorry I'm doing all my editing on my phone, my wife lives on the home computer and I have to sneek in whenever I can, or like this on my phone. Thanks Joey

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Wednesday, November 7th, 2012 AT 6:56 AM
Tiny
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Can't help you with the newer cars and transmissions. I DID recently find out that you can replace the 2.7L in an early 2000s Intrepid with a 3.5L, and use the same transmission AND the same Engine Computer. One of the reasons I became a Chrysler fan in the 70s was they built in so much parts interchangeability among many models and years but I never would have believed two different engines would run perfectly on the same computer.

For your overhead unit, the sensor is inside it for the compass. It consists of some "Hall Effect" transistors which are controlled by a magnetic field instead of a small current flow like normal. Turning those transistors in the earth's magnetic field causes them to conduct more or less, then the computer circuit looks at which ones are conducting the most current to figure out how they're oriented.

The sensor for the thermometer sits on the middle of the brace in front of the radiator. It has two wires, and the sensing element on the other end is a round cylinder about 3/8" long and 1/4" in diameter. Because it sits so close to the radiator and would be affected by its heat, that reading will not update or change while the van is standing still. It needs road speed and air flow to be accurate.

I don't know what the second sensor is for. There is no separate sensor for the radiator fan. There are two coolant temperature sensors on the engine near the thermostat housing. One is for the dash gauge and will always have one wire, usually purple. If you unplug it the gauge will go to "cold". If you ground the wire, the gauge will read full "hot".

The coolant temperature sensor for the Engine Computer will always have two wires. If you unplug that one with the ignition switch turned on, the reading on a scanner would be -40 degrees, and the radiator fan will turn on because the computer knows that is not a valid reading and it doesn't know if the engine is overheating. Just in case, they turn on the fan. That will also turn on the Check Engine light and set a fault code in memory for "Coolant temperature sensor voltage too high". The fan will go off when you reconnect that sensor, and on some models the Check Engine light will go off. If the light stays on, it will be off the next time you start the engine. The fault code will erase by itself after 50 starts.

When the Engine Computer sees approximately 210 degrees from the coolant temperature sensor, it turns on the radiator fan relay. It turns it off at 198 degrees.

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Wednesday, November 7th, 2012 AT 8:19 AM
Tiny
JOEY FITZGERALD
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I took the truck to the AutoZone and they hooked up the meter to it, and didn't show any codes. Since then a engine light with code p0455, by key on; off; on; off ; on, self diagnosis. But the funny thing about the Speedo (not working until I reach 35-40mph, going from 0 to 35-40 in one bouncing motion is if at around 25, 30 you step on the brake pedal it goes up too whatever speed your doing. And you when you release the brake pedal, it quits working again.I don't know if this has anything to with what's happening, there's an extra 12v acc below the drink holder that has no power to it. The cig lighter works fine. Maybe a missing power source? PS still have not been able to get the van. Going yet.I'm not giving up yet though. Or figure out the brake, abs lights either. Thank you for all your guidance, I know with your knowledge and acess to info you'll be able to guide me to an answer.I know its hard to do some diagnostics without having access too the car right in front of you. It would be already fixed. Thanks for everything. Joey

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Tuesday, November 13th, 2012 AT 8:37 AM
Tiny
JOEY FITZGERALD
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I looked up in you code diagnostics (P0455) is evaporative control issue (big leak), should I look for broken hose, filter, what. Should I crank up the truck and get under it and listen for a vacuum leak, or (hiss) pressure leaks.A sensor not closing, opening?A fuse controlling a sensor? Thanks

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Tuesday, November 13th, 2012 AT 9:24 AM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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The evaporative emissions system including the gas tank is pumped up to 2 psi so you won't hear a leak. A big leak is generally the gas cap was left loose but also look for a hose disconnected between the tank and the charcoal canister.

When you can't find the cause visually, you need a smoke machine to inject a white non-toxic smoke into the system, then you look for where it sneaks out. You might find one at an auto parts store that rents or borrows tools.

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Tuesday, November 13th, 2012 AT 9:33 AM
Tiny
JOEY FITZGERALD
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Well hello again I feel like a big dummy.I found my P0455 code, I had crawled into the engine compartment to check and clean (sandblast) the plugs. And I guess my big old foot knocked the connection loose, on the solenoid that goes to evap system. Now I need to reset the error code, the auto parts store says that one they aren't aloud to reset the computer. State law or some gov thing. Will unplugging the batt, and waiting a few min, do the job? Also they told me that their tester doesn't read the problem (Speedo does not read correctly).I believe they want to sell me a tester. But if it's the same one, why doesn't there's work! Any suggestionsas what to do, I can't afford to put it in the shop, just to get a reading.@Still can't get the brake-abs lights to go away either tried all your suggestions.I'll try rebleeding the system. Got any other ideas how to fix my problems? Thank you for all your help happy holidays Joey

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Monday, November 19th, 2012 AT 9:50 AM

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