CAR STALLED OUT DRIVING AND NOW IT WONT START, ENGINE TURNS OVER JUST FINE. NO START.
1992 Dodge Dynasty
September, 28, 2012 AT 11:41 PM
I have a 1992 Dodge Dynasty 3.3l with approx 100000 miles. We have had the car for under six years and the only major issues have been trans related.
I was driving to the store last week and the car cut out while driving at about 40mph. I pulled over and could not get it to restart.
Minor low level diagnosis showed no fire from the wires to the plugs.
-- Replaced the ignition coil --
The battery was found to be insufficient
-- Replaced with a 660cca battery --
Crankshaft position sensor was suggested
-- Replaced CKP sensor --
I have shot some carb cleaner just to see if it was fuel related with no change in the start up.
The car has had a cut out issue for almost six to nine months. It has always started right back up afterwards with no issue. The cut out issue was very intermediate and never showed any serious sign to what may have been causing it.
Now I have a no start condition and a limited amount of tools and funds. I have been told it may be the ECM or the PCM or the Camshaft Position Sensor. I currently feel that this issue may be above my pay grade.
Don't even think about the computer. Chrysler had extremely little trouble with them. First check for diagnostic fault codes by cycling the ignition switch three times within five seconds and counting the flashes of the Check Engine light. Rather than retyping everything again, go here if you need to:
Holler back with those numbers. The crankshaft position sensor is the most common cause of your symptoms but you also have a camshaft position sensor that can do the same thing. Also, was there some type of spacer on the end of the new crankshaft position sensor?
September, 29, 2012 AT 2:37 AM
Thank you for your quick response.
I will attempt to cycle the ignition 3x and see what may come up. Will it still report after I changed the battery?
I will report back tomm(Sat 9-29) after I get back to the car. Unfortunately, the car is stuck in front of a friends business currently.
Tnx again for the quick response.
September, 29, 2012 AT 2:52 AM
Forgot to answer the question. The old crankshaft position sensor had NO spacer. The new sensor HAD a spacer. Installed the new one w/ the spacer. NO change what-so-ever was made. None. Still turns over great. However, no start.
Again, I will check to see if any codes may be present even with the battery swap. Doubting any will show.
Btw, the check engine light works during start ups. Also had the check engine light come on about a year ago and did a minor tune-up(wires, plugs, fuel injection cleaning, air filter). Light went off and has been fine since, minus the occasional cut-out and this current issue. So I can confirm the light does work correctly.
September, 29, 2012 AT 4:16 AM
You're right about the codes. Disconnecting the battery erased them. You might get one to come back during cranking. The Engine Computer knows when the engine is being cranked and it knows when a signal is coming from either the cam or crank sensor, it should be getting a signal from both of them.
There has been a common problem with the solenoid contacts in the starter. That will cause the voltage to show up at the computer to tell it the engine is cranking even though those worn contacts result in a no-crank condition. While the computer thinks the engine should be cranking, since it isn't, no signals arrive from either sensor but no codes will be set.
What that boils down to is since the battery was disconnected, a code may not set just from cranking the engine. In that case you would need a scanner to view live data. The two sensors' signals will be listed as "no" or "present".
One other test you should consider is checking to see if the automatic shutdown (ASD) relay is turning on. There are actually three circuits involved in a no-start condition; the ignition system, which you identified as not working, the fuel supply system which hasn't been tested, and the trigger circuit that turns both of them on. That trigger circuit is the cam and crank sensors. The Engine Computer turns the ASD relay on for one second when you turn on the ignition switch, and you might hear the hum of the fuel pump for that one second. It turns that relay on again during engine rotation, (cranking or running), and it knows there's rotation by the two sensor signals.
Since you know the ignition system is dead, it is unlikely the fuel system also has a separate problem at the same time. That leaves the ignition coil circuit or the cam and crank sensor circuit, and the sensors cause about 90 percent of the no-start problems.
To tell if the ASD relay is turning on, one time-consuming way is to pop the cover off of it, reinstall it that way, then watch the movable contact. An easier way is to measure the voltage at the ignition coil, any injector, or either small wire on the back of the alternator. A test light works best. You can use a digital voltmeter but most of them don't respond fast enough to catch that one second blip. What you should see is the test light lights up for one second after turning on the ignition switch, then it should turn on again during cranking. If it does, the two sensors are working and you have an issue with the coil pack or wiring to it.
The wire color at the coil pack or any injector is dark green / orange stripe.
September, 29, 2012 AT 6:51 PM
went over to run some of these steps. Switched out asd relay, got clicking with old asd relay and swapped asd relay.
-- Not thinking asd relay considering what you have told me and what I heard from a couple of other people. --
one major thing I believe I stumbled upon that I should of noticed.
-- NO CHECK ENGINE LIGHT AT ALL --
not lighting up during start up
not lighting up placing into the on position
nothing from check engine light at all
how I noticed this was attempting to run the code read out steps you had provided. NO LIGHT.
I did attempt to remove harness from pcm located on passenger side of engine bay. I cleaned off the terms and blow out the harness itself. Re-installed harness to pcm.
Turned over good
no check engine light
is the module box on the passenger side of the engine bay the PCM as I suspected?
Is there a way to jump/bypass the pcm to confirm start up?
I called a salvage yard and they were able to locate a few pcms locally. Between 50-100.
The only questions I was asked was engine displacement and emissions standard. Of course I went with 3.3l and fed emissions.
I went online last night and shopped some pcms and most people that have some were asking about pcm numbers and such.
Is this important or is that mostly year specific?
I already understand that if I am somehow able to bypass the pcm to confirm start up that I will not be able to drive it.
How can I confirm this pcm without throwing another part at it?
Luckily I am able to take back the parts I have gotten thus far since I know a few managers in the parts stores.
Sorry for all the questions. The woman is pressing on me to get this bugged out real soon. I thank you for your input thus far.
September, 30, 2012 AT 1:58 AM
Gotta stop you right here. I'd check for a blown fuse first, either under the hood or in the glove box. Next we have to figure out where to check for voltage to the PCM, and if one terminal is missing voltage and no fuses are blown, we need to look at the inside of the left front strut tower to check for burned fuse link wires. Those are dull orange, gray, black, green, or white wires and they're not taped up. Pull on those one at a time to test 'em. If they act like a wire, they're okay. If they act like a rubber band, they're burned open. I doubt that is the problem though since it was running okay earlier.
The reason I must stop you is you can run into a whole can of worms changing the computer. If your car has the factory-installed security system, you have nothing to worry about but the person you give back a test module does. If your car doesn't have that security system, you MUST install a used one from another car that didn't have that system and that can be almost impossible to know since most salvage yards don't check for that when they're parting out a car. Here's a copy and paste version of the whole story for an Intrepid but it's the same for your car: If you DO have the anti-theft system, you can use any Engine or Body Computer from the salvage yard, but from then on, that computer will only work on another car that also has the anti-theft system. DO NOT borrow a friend's computer if his car doesn't have the anti-theft system.
Both computers have anti-theft programming that can not be undone. If your car does NOT have the anti-theft system, you must find a used computer from a donor car that also did not have anti-theft, and that can be impossible to find out from the salvage yard since there's no easy way to tell unless the car was running when it was brought in. Even then, they might not have bothered to find out.
When you install either the Body Computer or the Engine Computer with anti-theft programming into your car without anti-theft, the new computer will teach it to the other one. A Body Computer will teach it to the Engine Computer or a replacement Engine Computer will teach it to the Body Computer. At that point the car will not start because both computers are waiting for the disarm signal that's never coming. Both computers will have to be replaced at the same time. If you just replace one of them, it will immediately learn the anti-theft programming from the other one as soon as the ignition switch is turned on.
If you buy a remanufactured Body Computer from the dealer, it will come without the anti-theft programming. It will work in any car as soon as it is installed and will self-program itself for anti-theft only if the system is on the car, when it learns it from the Engine Computer.
Okay, I'm back. There is no way to run the engine without the PCM. It doesn't simply modify ignition timing like the early GM computers did. This one has the switching circuits built in that drive the injectors, ignition coils, alternator, and automatic shutdown relay / fuel pump relay.
Did you notice if you could hear the hum of the fuel pump for one second when you turn on the ignition switch? If you can't hear it you need to do the check I mentioned earlier to see if the ASD relay is turning on. Do that by testing for voltage on the dark green / orange wire at the coil pack or any injector. You can use a digital voltmeter but a test light is easier to see.
September, 30, 2012 AT 7:47 PM
i am at a stand still for right now. I havent gotten a test light or ohmmeter as I had expected. Hopefully tonight or tomm will prove to be more productive in getting that equipment.
Question - could you provide the necessary steps for testing what we need to? Such as the asd relay, ignition coil, crank and cam sensors, fuel?
I understand most everything you have provided and want to make sure I am following your directions thoroughly so we can knock out each thing without having to re-do steps or missing steps.
I am leery of exactly which wires and/or contacts I will need to test out and when to test them.
Please understand, as much as I do not want to waste my time. I DO NOT want to WASTE your time. I hope you understand.
I will be printing everything in this thread that you provide as a reference when I am on site with the car.
Even if you would like to go back to ground zero, I am willing to do so.
Let me know what to do from here and I will do my best. I will check back in on the thread here often today.
Thank you for your time and understanding.
September, 30, 2012 AT 8:05 PM
The first thing is to determine if the ASD relay is turning on. Test on the dark green / orange wire at the coil pack or any injector. You should see voltage there for just one second after turning on the ignition switch. If you do, that proves the circuit is good and the Engine Computer has control of it. If you do not, (which would be very uncommon), we have to back up and check that voltage supply circuit.
If you do see that voltage for one second, (which many digital voltmeters don't respond fast enough to catch, so a cheap test light is better), the next thing is that voltage must come back during cranking. There's about a 90 percent chance it will not, and that means we have to diagnose the circuit that tells the Engine Computer the engine is rotating, and that's the cam and crank sensors.
There's about a 10 percent chance that voltage will come back during cranking, and that means one of the other two circuits is dead. Nine percent chance the fuel pump isn't starting up, (that's how they typically fail on Chrysler products), but in that case you will still have spark.
There's a one percent chance the ignition system is dead. That would cause no spark but the fuel pump would run and the injectors would pulse so you'd smell lots of raw fuel at the tail pipe. You actually have three ignition coils in the coil pack. All three aren't going to fail at the same time. If one did fail that would leave you with a horrendous misfire, not a no-start condition. The only thing that could cause no spark to all six cylinders and the fuel system is still working is a broken wire feeding all three coils, (that dark green / orange wire), or a defective Engine Computer. Both are very uncommon.
Once we know if that voltage comes back during cranking, we'll know which way to go next.
September, 30, 2012 AT 11:12 PM
10-4. I will print out the steps and reply soon as I have any results or lack there of.
Thank you very much. Talk to ya soon. Have a good night.
October, 2, 2012 AT 8:34 PM
Ran into a bit of a delay on the dynasty. My other car is now giving us issues. 1993 Chev Corsica 3.1L. It lost power on the way home after changing oil pressure switch. I had to drop the starter and reinstall. Could I ask my question here or should I start a new thread. I am totally tapped on money at atm and honestly don't know anywhere else to turn to for advice.