Intermittent start and stall when put in reverse

Tiny
ELIZABETH LANE
  • MEMBER
  • 2004 VOLKSWAGEN PASSAT
  • 1.8L
  • 2WD
  • MANUAL
  • 164,000 MILES
I have been having a problem with my car. It randomly will not start usually after it has run for awhile and then shut off. Sometimes will not start right away. Also if it starts and you just put it in revise without letting out the clutch it shuts off. I have attached a screen shot from my phone of all the codes. There are 12 codes. Many of them short to ground? Also included a picture of a check engine light that I can not find the meaning to? Please help.
Saturday, August 22nd, 2020 AT 10:44 AM

23 Replies

Tiny
KASEKENNY
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That is a lot of codes but let's start with the simplest solution that could cause something like this and that is the battery.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/car-battery-load-test

Let's load test the battery and see if it passes. If does let us know. If not, clearly we need to replace it.

There are quite a few different issues with those codes but the voltage unstable is where I am looking. Again, let's start there and see make sure it is okay.

Thanks
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Saturday, August 22nd, 2020 AT 2:31 PM
Tiny
ELIZABETH LANE
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Thank you for getting back to me, The battery is only two months old and passed the load test. I also put a multi meter on it and it, been a few weeks but I think it stayed in the 13.5 to 14 volt range, but I will be your hand and feet if you want me to retest. Also I pulled the battery out and checked all connected including the chassis ground from the battery.
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Sunday, August 23rd, 2020 AT 5:00 PM
Tiny
KASEKENNY
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Great to know but that will do for now. If we need to circle back because we don't turn anything else up then we can. However, how often does this happen? Is it something you can get to act up frequently?

If so, since we have the codes documented above, let's clear all the codes and then get it to act up again and check the codes again. The reason is, some of these codes may be from removing the battery and hooking it back up. There are a lot of short to ground codes and that could be due to a wiring issue but I don't want to chase something that is not "real" so if all these same code or most of them come back then we know they are actually pointing to the issue. My bet is that the short to ground codes do not come back but some of the others do.

Let me know this info and we can go from there. Thanks
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Sunday, August 23rd, 2020 AT 7:12 PM
Tiny
ELIZABETH LANE
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It started by not starting quickly, but after a while would began to not start at all. You leave it sit for a while and try again and it cranks and then starts. I cant really put my finger on a certain pattern, but it seems like it starts more often cold, then you run it for a while and turn it off and try to turn it back on and then will not start. Let it sit and then it will start eventually. We are not driving it because it is unreliable. I will clear codes and get back with you. Update: cleared all codes and then would not start. I tried for about five minutes and nothing. So I will let it sit for a few hours and try again. Here is another random fact that might be worth mentioning. The secondary cooling fan runs constantly when the car is running, I have looked for the darn fan control rely module and it is not where everyone seems to say it is. Anyway if I unplug the fan it does not fix the problem it continues same symptoms. I will write again when it starts and I can read the codes again
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Monday, August 24th, 2020 AT 8:15 AM
Tiny
KASEKENNY
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Okay. That is good info. After that I suspect we do have a wiring issue so let's confirm this with this plan of clearing the codes and getting them to come back. Once this happens we will start tracing wiring. Thanks
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Monday, August 24th, 2020 AT 7:51 PM
Tiny
ELIZABETH LANE
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All right Kenny, it would not start this morning, battery was sluggish I think because of multiple attempts to start today and yesterday. So jumped it and it started after cranking for 5-8 seconds. I took it out on a 40 minute drive through the country and a little highway, no check engine lights at all. Not even a flicker. Came home checked battery while running 13.5 volts. Turned engine off 12.90 volts. Tried to start cranked for a 10 seconds then started, turned the engine off let it sit for a few minutes maybe 4-5 and tried to start again would not start. Check engine light came on as well as the triangle circled with an explanation point (picture attached). Okay, just pulled the codes and they are attached. Wow, lots of codes. This where I scratch my head and say hmmm?
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Tuesday, August 25th, 2020 AT 8:19 AM
Tiny
KASEKENNY
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Interesting. At the end of this I suspect we have a wiring issue in the engine harness. Take a look at this wiring diagram. I would suggest locating the wiring harness for the injectors and tracing it back to the PCM looking for a place that it is rubbed through. The fact that you have all the injectors and multiple other components showing that there is a short to grounds just points to this. Due to the injectors all having this same code is the best place to start. I fully expect you are going to find the harness has a rub through where it is touching metal. Let me know if you are able to find it and we can go from there on how to repair it. If you do can you get a picture?
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Tuesday, August 25th, 2020 AT 6:20 PM
Tiny
ELIZABETH LANE
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Okay, yes that makes total sense. Because the last repair done by a mechanic was replacing an ignition coil. Maybe there is something in the coil they replaced of moved a wire that is now faulting out. So I will let you know what I find.
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Wednesday, August 26th, 2020 AT 2:13 PM
Tiny
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Things are starting to add up. Unfortunately, I think that reaffirms the idea that you are going to have to trace the harness. It's not fun, but I am sure you will find your issue. Thanks for the update.
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Wednesday, August 26th, 2020 AT 6:46 PM
Tiny
ELIZABETH LANE
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I'm sorry I thought this message was already sent. Should I pull wires out of the harness to inspect or leave them in the harness and look for a place were they have shorted out against each other or on metal? Or just disconnect harness inspect that way? Yeah, the harness starts on top then disappears between engine and fire wall and goes down. It must come back up because the computer sits top right of engine compartment. I will be working on it this afternoon.
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Sunday, August 30th, 2020 AT 10:25 AM
Tiny
KASEKENNY
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I would recommend leaving them in the harness and looking for where it may have rubbed through. More then likely you will see damage to the protection shield and then you will see the wiring itself. However, the idea is to find the place that it is laying against something. So it is not like you want to remove the harness to inspect it as you want to see it as it lays.

The fact that it goes down between the engine and firewall you may have to pull it out from there. But other then that you will want to inspect it as it sits. Just twist it and move as needed to see all angles.

Thanks for the update. Let us know what you find.
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Sunday, August 30th, 2020 AT 7:39 PM
Tiny
ELIZABETH LANE
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Hi Kenny, I have included these pictures of the harness and dang it! It actually seems to be in good shape. I thoroughly inspected the harness and followed back to the computer. There were several places that were potential pinch point and or rub points, but upon closer inspection they there were not frayed wiring or damaged sheathing. Dang it! There was one place where the harness was attached to a bracket and couldn't see to well but I was able to take off my gloves off and slip my finger between the bracket and harness and the once again the sheathing was undamaged. So I wouldn't bet my life on it with out taking the harness out and taking the wires out of the harness but at this point I did not see any damaged wiring. So what should I do now?
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Saturday, September 5th, 2020 AT 2:40 PM
Tiny
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This is a tough call. So all I can do is tell you what I would do with all these codes. I would pull one of them like one of the injector codes and run a new wire from the ECM to the injector so that I can get that code to not return. Then move onto one other like the turbo charger. If running new wires just over the engine or in a direct (safely routed) route just to confirm this is a wiring issue, I would then replace the harness.

With all these circuit low and short to ground codes, I am sure you have an issue in the harness touching some metal but I want to prove it out and the way to do that on intermittent issues is to just run a temporary wire (cutting the original wire at both ends to eliminate it) so that you can drive the vehicle to confirm this code did not return.

Does that make sense?
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Saturday, September 5th, 2020 AT 7:55 PM
Tiny
ELIZABETH LANE
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Okay, yes I understand. So I rewire one of the injectors back to the computer and yes if the code comes back. If the code does not come back after rewiring then I prove that the shirt is in the wiring harness. In which case I would probably remove the harness and open it up to discover wire the the wires are shorting to each other or to ground? Correct?

With the included pictures you probably has figured that I am Elizabeth. I am David, Beth’s husband, she set up the account on an issue a while back and you helped us. So we just use her account.

Attached pictures and questions. I see on the diagram color coding. Can you tell me or point out on the diagram which cylinder is number one and which is four. Is it front to back or back to front? Also there are a series of connectors that are close to the computer box. Did the injector wires run to these connectors and then to the box or to the end of the actor wires run directly to the computer? I’ve been clued it included a picture of the connectors in the computer module box I am assuming that all the wires from the harness run to these connectors and then connect to the computer module? Also, I see the injectors, where is the turbo chargers or charger?
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Sunday, September 6th, 2020 AT 8:42 AM
Tiny
ELIZABETH LANE
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Sorry for the spelling errors.
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Sunday, September 6th, 2020 AT 9:06 AM
Tiny
KASEKENNY
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You are correct. You just run new wires for a couple of the components and if those specific codes do not return then you know these are all almost sure to be related by the same issue.

So your injector should have 2 wires (the picture is a little small). So the black/blue wire is the 12 volt feed and will be the same for each injector. The other wire goes direct to the ECM. You need to do both wires but if you want to do one at a time that is fine as well.

I would cut the wire about three inches behind the injector and ECM and then run the new wire. I included the wiring diagrams. The ECM is a little tricky to find the wire but clearly it is going to be the same color and it is in terminal 96.

I am trying to find a connector view of the ECM to help but have not found one yet.

Let me know if you have other questions. Thanks
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Sunday, September 6th, 2020 AT 5:02 PM
Tiny
ELIZABETH LANE
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Questions I will just cut to the main thing here. I have many questions I’m curious about having studied the diagrams you have sent but at this point I just want to get Beth’s car back on the road. So the black and blue goes to the ECM. Where does the other wire go? And do I need to replace wire back to the fuse panel or just to the ECM box?
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Monday, September 7th, 2020 AT 10:07 AM
Tiny
KASEKENNY
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Correct. You cut the wire and then run a new one. The first two screen shots are the first wire from the fuse box to the injector. The second two screen shots are from the injector to the PCM.

I would replace both.
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Monday, September 7th, 2020 AT 7:49 PM
Tiny
ELIZABETH LANE
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Hi Kenny, I know its been awhile but here is an update: From our last conversation I was going to test cylinder one by routing two new wires back to the computer to test out our theory, however the wires were covered in tape by the computer, the wire was faded by the injector and I could not find the correct pin by looking at the diagram. So I decided to get radical and pull the wiring harness off. I did not find the expected short to ground quite the opposite the wiring harness in the engine compartment seemed to be in excellent shape. After having the harness off I traced all the wires from the all 4 ignition coils and injectors back to the computer. I checked all rub points and opened up the harness in different positions that looked suspicious only to find wires in perfect condition. The wires move freely in the harness and no visible damage to the wires. I could see 90% of the harness by manipulating the covering. Also I used my multi meter to test all wires from injector and ignition coils to computer. All wires check with 0 resistance. I also followed the wires from the computer which is in the engine compartment back to the fuse box. Now I did not remove any of the dash but was able to see a good portion from the fuse box under the dash and then trough the fire wall. Not sure percentage wise what I could see but things looked in god shape from what I could see. There is one place were it looks like a plastic side panel is kind of awkwardly sitting against the wires coming from the computer I will pull that panel today and look for shorts. If that looks good then what should I check next? What should I do next?
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Tuesday, November 24th, 2020 AT 8:56 AM
Tiny
ELIZABETH LANE
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Oh yeah, forgot this part. So got the harness back on and looking pretty, geez that was a job. Started right up, drove it for 30 minutes no problems. Pull into the garage shut it it off immediately try to restarts and wouldn't start. To be clear it will turn over just will not start. Just went to garage just now and started. Although it seems to take more turns of the engine to start then it use to, but it did start and was running well.
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Tuesday, November 24th, 2020 AT 9:14 AM

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