P0018 and P0019 after work done

Tiny
CODMASTER7@GMAIL.COM
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I got both off. Tomorrow I ll have the cover off and timing chains replaced. Any advice on making sure I put them on right with proper timing?

Also any advice on what else to replace while I m this far in? Like water pump for example.
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Friday, November 8th, 2019 AT 10:25 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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How have you been? As far as timing marks, take a look through the long prior post I sent. It has all the directions for all three chains.

Since you have it apart, inspect guides, tensioners. As far as the water pump, if it's not leaking or there are no issues with it, I would reuse the one you have. At least it isn't driven by the timing chain, so if you need to replaced it, not everything needs to come apart.

Let me know how things work out for you.

Joe
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Friday, November 8th, 2019 AT 3:21 PM
Tiny
CODMASTER7@GMAIL.COM
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Great point. Thanks. I ve been well all things considered. It s been light snowing here and temperatures under 40F. So tough to work a bit outside. But I have everything off. I did see and will reference the timing marks. Just not sure if I need to know anything special since the timing is actively off on the left bank. I m sure the marks will make everything good to go.

Also, I ripped the end off one of the VVT solenoids during removal. Is it okay to just replace one or should I hit all 4, just looking for opinion. Thanks again for the conversation and guidance.
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Friday, November 8th, 2019 AT 3:30 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Always remember the old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." LOL Just replace the broken one. As far as timing, if you follow the directions, they explain everything. You will be fine. Also, we have been getting light snow and below 40 temps. Are you near Pittsburgh?
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Friday, November 8th, 2019 AT 7:07 PM
Tiny
CODMASTER7@GMAIL.COM
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Nah. I m in Michigan. Thanks again for the great input and assistance. I greatly appreciate it.

For when I am moving from phase 1 to phase 2 timing positions how should I turn the engine? The videos I see on Cloyes does not seem to be using the crankshaft do not sure what they are turning and want to be safe.
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Saturday, November 9th, 2019 AT 7:09 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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First, you are very welcome. We're not too far apart. LOL As far as turning the engine, use the crank. There isn't anything else. I'm not sure what they are showing.

Take care and let me know how things go for you.

Joe
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Saturday, November 9th, 2019 AT 9:57 PM
Tiny
CODMASTER7@GMAIL.COM
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I am in need of some urgent guidance. I went through the instructions to remove the timing chains. Spark plugs out already etc. I felt some resistance when moving to stage 1 timing. I also heard clicking as I moved from stage 2 (8 o clock) to 1 (4 o clock). I am almost certain my left bank camshafts are out of position. So I can t just install the new timing as they are off right? How do I know what position to clock the cam phasers to?
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Sunday, November 10th, 2019 AT 10:07 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi:

Have you aligned the in accordance to the directions I sent you? Also, where it the clicking coming from? Are you concerned there is an internal contact issue?

Let me know. It's late here (11:30) but I will hang around for another half hour to see if you receive this.

Joe
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Sunday, November 10th, 2019 AT 8:32 PM
Tiny
CODMASTER7@GMAIL.COM
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Update, talked to some mechanic friends of mine, I believe the clicking I m hearing is either the VVT phasers as I rotated the engine (all chains connected) from phase 1 to 2 timing as part of the procedure. After I had all chains off I realized the left bank (issue in this case) was not aligned to the service procedure positioning. When I tried to move them there was much resistance so I worried there were valve contact. So I reconnected the primary and right bank chains (tensioners guides etc) and rotates them a little, tried adjusting the left bank and repeat. Trying to get the valves clear to clock the left bank to where it needs to be. When I was finally able to get it to go I applied more pressure than before and realized the resistance I was feeling I believe it as just the spring force of the rocker arms. Once I rotated enough the cam(s) sprung into the next position which then aligned perfectly to the instructions.

To answer your question, yes I have been following the instructions provided and the ones I have (same instructions) to the T. Pausing to check them and think about my next move. At this point I m ready to install new timing kit and begin re-assembly however there is 5-8 of snow coming today which I have off for Veterans Day. Just my luck. Will have to wait until it melts to get back at it. Ahh the Midwest in November.
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Monday, November 11th, 2019 AT 4:38 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Glad to hear it was aligned. Yes, the lifters will certainly cause resistance.

Did you say snow? Keep it up there! Actually, they are calling for it here tomorrow. Ugh! It's time to move south.

Take care and keep me in the loop.

Joe
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Monday, November 11th, 2019 AT 6:34 PM
Tiny
CODMASTER7@GMAIL.COM
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Hey Joe,

I'm back with a status update. I finished the timing chain portion of the job. I had to install, uninstall and reinstall many times to ensure they were correct. Had a few chain tensioners not wanting to actually deploy when I removed the pin. I have all that good to go now with marks lined up perfectly.

Now I need to re-install the front engine cover. Question(s): What should I replace while I am doing this? What seals and rings etc? Also the instructions call for an EN 46109 guide pins to install the engine cover but can't find those anywhere. Any input welcome, thanks.
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Monday, November 25th, 2019 AT 10:43 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Welcome back.

I would recommend replacing all o-rings and of course, the gasket itself which most likely had an RTV gasket. At this point, replace the crank seal as well.

As far as the guide pin set you are referring to, it is a tool. Type in the exact part number you indicated and it will bring up what you are looking for. You can get them just about anywhere.

Copy and paste the following in a google search. EN 46109 Guide Pin Set

_______________________________________

Here are the specifics for replacing the cover:

2007 Saturn Truck Outlook V6-3.6L
122. Engine Front Cover Installation
Vehicle Engine, Cooling and Exhaust Engine Service and Repair Overhaul Unit Repair 07 Outlook 3.6L Repair Instructions 122. Engine Front Cover Installation
122. ENGINE FRONT COVER INSTALLATION
Engine Front Cover Installation

Tools Required

EN 46109 Guide Pins

pic 1

1. Install the 8 mm (0.315 in) guide from the EN 46109 into the cylinder block positions as shown.

Pic 2

2. Install the NEW engine front cover to cylinder block seal.

Pic 3

3. Place a 3 mm (0.118 in) bead of RTV sealant, GM P/N 12378521 (Canadian P/N 88901148) or equivalent, on the engine front cover as shown (1).

Pic 4

4. Place the engine front cover onto the EN 46109 and slide into position.
5. Remove the EN 46109 from the cylinder block.

Pic 5

6. Install the engine front cover deadener.

Pic 6

Notice: Refer to Fastener Notice

7. Loosely install the engine front cover bolts to hold the engine front cover deadener into position.

Pic 7

8. Loosely install the remaining engine front cover bolts.

Pic 8

9. Tighten the engine front cover bolts in the sequence shown (1-22).

Tighten the engine front cover bolts in the sequence to 23 N.M (17 lb ft).

Pic 9

10. Place the camshaft position actuator valves in position on the front cover.
11. Install the camshaft position actuator valve bolts.

Tighten the camshaft position actuator valve bolts to 10 N.M (89 lb in).

Pic 10

12. Install NEW O-rings on the camshaft position sensor.
13. Place the camshaft position sensors in position on the front cover.
14. Install the camshaft position sensor bolts.

Tighten the camshaft position sensor bolts to 10 N.M (89 lb in).

______________________________________

Let me know if this answers your questions.

Take care and let me know the outcome. If I don't hear from you, have a nice Thanksgiving.

Joe
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Monday, November 25th, 2019 AT 6:23 PM
Tiny
CODMASTER7@GMAIL.COM
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So for better or worse I installed the front engine cover without the guide pins and it went very well. I practiced the install 'dry' many times to ensure the RTV didn't get messed up. I replaced the water pump seal but didn't replace the crank shaft seal. I have most everything re-installed and found frayed wires on 2 of the 4 timing solenoids. Very difficult to find but I am working on it.

Is it safe to check compression with 2 timing solenoids unplugged? I really want to get an idea if the repair fixed the compression issue on the left bank.

I probably will wait anyway, gonna replace the belt as the old one is dry and cracked. I am concerned that I didn't get enough torque on the crankshaft pulley bolt because I have no holder tool, I got it tight to the point of spinning the crank and then hit it with my electric impact driver.

Just a general status update, thanks again for everything. Happy Thanksgiving.
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Tuesday, November 26th, 2019 AT 3:36 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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If you hit it with an impact, it should be fine. As far as the compression, yes you can check it. Let me know the results.
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Tuesday, November 26th, 2019 AT 5:21 PM
Tiny
CODMASTER7@GMAIL.COM
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Happy Thanksgiving! (Kind of, read on). So I finally finished re-assembly of everything and ran the compression test and no change! 31psi across left bank. Right bank actually got better at 150 each. Any chance this is explained at all by not firing it up yet? Any chance if I try to start it with fuel and coil packs it will change? Pretty sure the answer is no and I m out $800.00 and massive amount of my time, blood and sweat. Please let me know what is the logical next step. Am I going to be taking the head off this thing? Is this engine not worth the money, I m very upset and ruined my Thanksgiving, I hoped to have the opposite effect.

Hope you have a good Thanksgiving and get back to me when able. Thanks.
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Thursday, November 28th, 2019 AT 11:41 AM
Tiny
CODMASTER7@GMAIL.COM
  • MEMBER
Additionally, I quadruple verified the positioning of the camshaft phasers, sprockets and crankshaft when I assembled everything. Would this point to a camshaft issue potentially?
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Thursday, November 28th, 2019 AT 1:55 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
Hi,

It's time to remove the head. If you are certain the timing is right (and it sounds like you are) something is causing that entire bank to lave low compression. A bad cam shaft won't cause low compression unless it isn't turning and allowing valves to stay partially open. What is confusing to me is why they are all at 30 and don't change. Something isn't adding up. If there was a bent valve, worn rings, damaged piston, it would be one specific cylinder. This is all 3 cylinders on one bank. It's almost like the head gasket has failed and is affecting all cylinders.

I hate to say it, but the head has to come off. Is it worth the time and effort? There is only one way to know. Remove the head and see what is happening or causing it. At that point, we will determine if the engine is worth putting money into.

I do have one other thought. Is there any way you could get your hands on a scope which is designed to see into areas such as cylinders? I don;t know if a parts store would lend or rent one, but perhaps you would be able to see what is happening without taking the head off. At least it would save you time. It's just a thought.

Try to have a good Thanksgiving, whats left of it. Car's will always be there to drive you crazy.

Joe
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Thursday, November 28th, 2019 AT 5:50 PM
Tiny
CODMASTER7@GMAIL.COM
  • MEMBER
Thanks for the feedback. Is there one single head gasket or one per bank? I m unfamiliar with this level of engine detail. I have a friend who likely has a scope I could borrow and will ask. What would I be looking for? Putting the scope in and seeing if there is light bleed from the outside? Just trying to get an idea of what I d do with the scope.

I assumed the head has to come off. Issue now is being December in a few days I can t do this in my driveway as I ll have steady snow soon and can t expose the engine to that. Making this choice more difficult. My father has a large heated shop but is a 30 min drive so I ve avoided taking it there as it will drastically slow my already snail like progress. Anyway just mentioning this because my updates will likely slow as well.
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Friday, November 29th, 2019 AT 4:06 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
Each bank has its own head gasket. By putting the scope into each cylinder, you can tell if there has been damage to cylinder walls, the tops of the pistons, valves and so on. If everything looks good, then we have to remove the head to see if it is a gasket related issue. The scope is to help you determine if it is worth taking things apart or just replacing the engine.

Please feel free to let me know if you have questions. Also, when you do the checks, upload pics for me to see as well (if you can).

Joe
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Friday, November 29th, 2019 AT 7:24 PM
Tiny
CODMASTER7@GMAIL.COM
  • MEMBER
I m halfway through the disassembly, it doesn t make sense for me to wait to get the scope before getting in there so that s my plan. I will take pictures of the valves, head, gasket etc, for your consultation on next steps. Thanks.

Do you know if the injector bank (maybe called lower plenum?) Needs to come off to get the head off?
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Saturday, November 30th, 2019 AT 4:24 AM

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