P0717 code?

Tiny
JAMESB2019
  • MEMBER
  • 2006 PONTIAC G6
  • 3.9L
  • V6
  • 2WD
  • 150,000 MILES
This G6 GTP 3.9 Transmission FR3 4T65E version has been registering ISS p0717 code for almost 2 years with no symptoms that the driver could detect. The ISS was replaced but that didn't erase the code. Recently, the TCM was replaced and programmed: Still no change. This past week, the 49-Way connector and wires to the TCM were replaced by splicing. The code p0717 was registered again. Finally- 2 days ago, the 20-Way external connector and wires to the transmission harness were replaced by splicing as well. When the job was done, everything was put back together except the Electronic Brake Module Connector was left unplugged *by mistake* as the car was being tested and the Key left in the run position for sometime. Later on, the connector to the EBCM was reconnected while the key was still in the run position and the scanner connected to the DLC *again, I think the key should've been turned off while reconnecting the electronic brake module.* The scanner initially displayed a message: "Communication with the Body Control Module was Lost." No code was registered. The car was taken for a drive cycle and the check engine light was actively cleared. Few minutes into the drive, the following occurred:

1. Code: p2534 Ignition switch/run low voltage
2. P0700 transmission
3. P0300 misfire
4. Check engine light blinking (not solid)
5. Acceleration began to suffer
6. Louder than normal noise

All spliced wires were rechecked for continuity.
What happened? The ignition wire (pink circuit 1339 or simply 39) from TCM 49-way connector pin 31 to transmission harness 20-way connector pin E showed no continuity. Is this normal when the key is in the off position? Does this wire go through a fuse or fusible link? The wiring diagram shows transmission fuse 4 in the junction block but no fusing in the wire in between pin 31 and pin E unless I am not reading the diagram correctly. All other connections showed continuity
I am not sure if I should test while the engine is running or while the key is in the on position or for that matter while battery voltage and ground are connected. Could this be a simple splicing issue or more? I think the misfire is the result of low voltage rather than damage to ignition switch probably caused by ignition wire or ground issue assuming the EBCM incident was not significant. Before asking this question, I looked over and reviewed the pins, the wires and circuits related to the TCM-49 way, the 20-way AT harness, the BCM and the ECM. So, I should be able to follow advice. However, there is one part of the ignition circuit where the 31 pin at the TCM connector and the E-pin at the 20 way AT harness connector and the Junction block fuse 4 circuits that remains a bit unclear. I am thinking this is where the problem is. I attached the electrical diagram I had and circled the part that I am not sure about how to test.

James
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Wednesday, June 23rd, 2021 AT 1:18 AM

22 Replies

Tiny
KEN L
  • ADMIN
Code P0717 is triggered when the transmissions' Input Speed Sensor isn't providing a signal. Lets replace the input speed sensor. Here is how in the diagrams below. Check out the diagrams (below). Let us know what happens and please upload pictures or videos of the problem.
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Thursday, June 24th, 2021 AT 12:09 PM
Tiny
JAMESB2019
  • MEMBER
So, I replaced the ISS and no change. However, as you may have read my recap on the work I did, the issue now isn't an ISS code (which most likely was resolved after Roy and I talked about splicing new connectors and harness wires) but a new problem I described in this question above. I will wait for an advice regarding the current problem.
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Thursday, June 24th, 2021 AT 2:40 PM
Tiny
KEN L
  • ADMIN
Continuity should not matter if the key is on or off. Lets check the connection between the transmission and the TCM. this guide will help:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-wiring

I have seen the BCM or instrument cluster cause issues as well. Let's do a CAN scan which is the future of automotive repair you can get a CAN scanner from Amazon for about $50.00. here is a video to show you how:

https://youtu.be/u-4syLc-ifQ

Check out the diagrams (below). Please let us know what happens.
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Monday, June 28th, 2021 AT 8:29 AM
Tiny
JAMESB2019
  • MEMBER
Hello Ken,

I appreciate the reply very much. I have actually spent the weekend mapping out the electrical connections and made my own spreadsheet of pins, wires, and circuits between the 20-way AT connector, 49-way TCM connector, the fuse block and ECM. However, I did not go into the internal mode switch and related circuitry yet although I know shift 1-2 and 2-3 solenoids are affected by an ignition 1 voltage wire disconnect (most likely). Can you tell me where the attached segment of the electrical diagrams you sent me belongs to (what module? What connector? Etc.). I couldn't find the module or place where they are (examples: where does pin 13 PK wire belong? I know pin 31 ignition 1 voltage connects to it in the TCM and pin E in the 20-way AT connector. It also connects to C1 C9 in the junction block where fuse 4 is but I couldn't find pin 13 and the rest of the pins in that side of the electrical diagram). Attached is the segment I am referring to.
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Monday, June 28th, 2021 AT 1:49 PM
Tiny
KEN L
  • ADMIN
It is pin #31 in the transmission control module.
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Tuesday, June 29th, 2021 AT 8:55 AM
Tiny
JAMESB2019
  • MEMBER
Okay, so pink ignition1 voltage wire goes from pin 31 (as you confirmed) and not pin 13 (in other words there is no such thing as pin 13). I say this because pin 31 goes to pin E in the AT connector and to pin 19 in C1 of the ECM and then to cell C2 F6 in the Junction Block where Fuse 16 is. This makes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 in the attached diagram only representation not actual pins a particular module or block or connector. Right?

Thank you much Ken.

James
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Tuesday, June 29th, 2021 AT 2:40 PM
Tiny
KEN L
  • ADMIN
That is correct.
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Thursday, July 1st, 2021 AT 9:21 AM
Tiny
JAMESB2019
  • MEMBER
Thanks for your help. I was able to test and correct the electrical issues this G6 GTP had.

James
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Wednesday, July 7th, 2021 AT 9:48 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
Hi James,

Thanks for the update. What was the final fix for the issue? We are interested in knowing. Also, it will likely be helpful to others.

Take care,

Joe
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Saturday, July 10th, 2021 AT 11:07 PM
Tiny
JAMESB2019
  • MEMBER
Well, I am glad you want an update:

I was able to correct all the splicing issues and cleared all the newer codes (misfire due to ignition 1 circuit fault). Then after clearing all the codes and doing the 3 warm ups and drive cycles, the code 717 and 700 were stored as current and the check engine light was reset. In other words after replacing the ISS, replacing the TCM and reprogramming it and after the new wiring harnesses and TCM 49 and C100 AT wiring connectors were replaced the input speed shaft sensor signal issue was not resolved. As you may know (and actually have advised me last year about the same issue), the problem must be internal. However, I wanted to do all I could externally before reopening the side case cover again. I recently opened up a 4T65E transmission on a 2011 Chevrolet Impala and examined its internal wiring harness, the ISS, the solenoids, the valve body and the ISS Reluctor Ring. I was surprised to see the reluctor sitting so insecurely all by itself between the valve body and the chains on the turbine shaft. When I removed the valve body, the reluctor ring kind of fell off onto its side. I said to myself, maybe the problem is just that (either there is no reluctor in there or the ISS signal isn't hitting it at all). I hear the problem could be in the solenoids or the valve body itself. Is there anything else I should be considering when I open my transmission up this week. I am in the process of doing just that right now. I am going to replace the valve body (if I have to) along with the sensors and solenoids as well as making sure there is a reluctor ring that is new and sitting firmly in its place. What do you think? I mean this issue has been too long and hasn't been fixed. I had to get 2 state emission waivers since I bought the car for my sister and have rebuilt pretty much everything and still have to do more. It really is a good car and deserve the rebuild.

James
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Monday, July 12th, 2021 AT 10:52 PM
Tiny
DANNY L
  • EXPERT
Hello, I'm Danny.

Keep us updated and let us know what you find. Hopefully the reluctor ring is firmly in place. Thanks for using 2CarPros.
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Tuesday, July 13th, 2021 AT 10:10 PM
Tiny
JAMESB2019
  • MEMBER
Hello again,
I stopped working on this car because my sister is driving it, and she couldn't give it to me to fix it because "it took me too long last time."
I actually did not re-open up the transmission after all. Instead, I myself pulled out an FR3 4T65E transmission from another G6 3.9L 2006. This second transmission sat in my garage for almost a year while my sister drove the car that has the transmission with the P0717-code problem. I decided to get professional transmission shops to replace the reluctor ring in the car she is driving. However, all of the transmission shops in North Carolina refused to do the work I asked of them, and I am not sure why. I asked them to open up the side cover and remove the valve body and channel plate to reach the reluctor ring and check it out. They all refused no matter how much I tried and offered to pay what they ask for. Every shop gave me the same story: "we can rebuild but cannot do what you asked." My question to you: would you agree, or would you say: something isn't right here? Obviously, when I was about to do the work myself, no one objected. Few days ago, I placed the second transmission I pulled myself from another G6 in the trunk of my sister's G6 and drove the car to the best shop in town: Cottman Transmission. I told them: "do one of three things: 1. Replace the internal harness, the ISS again and the check out the reluctor to see if it needs replacement 2. Rebuild the existing transmission (the one in the car that has the ISS code) or 3. Swap or rebuild and then swap the transmission I pulled out from another G6. 4 days later, I called them, and they said they decided to swap without rebuilding to see what happens the reason being "it is the best option because there were metal shavings in the pan of the transmission existing in the car right now. And that the transmission I pulled out myself from another G6 looks great but obviously won't know until after the swap." What do you think? The cost of swapping without rebuilding this second transmission?1400 dollars. The cost of rebuilding the existing in the car transmission? 2200 dollars and the cost of opening the side cover and replacing the ISS again and the internal harness? 800 dollars. How about checking out and or replacing the reluctor? The answer is no "we won't do that." Let me know what you think as I would have had no problem choosing to check out the reluctor instead of swapping or rebuilding. While reaching the reluctor requires the shops to remove the channel plate and valve body, it should not be all that hard and rebuilding is no easy task either.
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Monday, August 1st, 2022 AT 11:31 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
Hi,

I would try swapping them to see if that takes care of the issue. Is it something you can do?

If there are time concerns, she could spend the $1,400.00, which is a lot of money.

Let me know.

Joe
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Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 AT 10:41 PM
Tiny
JAMESB2019
  • MEMBER
There was no issue with respect to time on my part, but she was driving the car all the time and going to activities and church on Saturday and Sunday leaving me no choice. While I can do it all (as I said I have removed and installed engines and transmissions before and was planning to follow repair instructions on this car of which the reluctor was the last option before considering a swap or overhaul), it does take me weeks at a time because (being a biochemist) I am not an automotive technician. Then, sadly, came conflicts and some altercation which I resolved to suppress by reaching out to professional transmission shops, but they refused to follow repair guidelines (I am sure you approved of all data instructional diagnosis sequence of which replacing the harness and reluctor is the end of the story). They just refused. I do not understand. I guess at this point, she will be paying 1400 dollars for the shop to "swap bolts!" And if that does not cut it, she could end up paying another $1,400.00 to get the issue resolved.
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Wednesday, August 3rd, 2022 AT 10:24 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
Hi,

I understand. I wish I could be there to help. Between the two of us, we could do it in a couple of evenings. LOL

By the way, if you noticed how many posts I have answered over the years (pushing 100K), I have to say you are the first Biochemist I've ever had. My hat is off to you.

If you have a chance, let me know how things turn out for you guys. I'd like to know.

Take care,

Joe
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Wednesday, August 3rd, 2022 AT 7:17 PM
Tiny
JAMESB2019
  • MEMBER
Actually, I must say 2CarPros. Com (Joe, Roy, Danny, Ken and the rest of the crew) are absolutely the best ever. I cannot tell you how lucky I am to have you as my guiding instructors. I love it!
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Wednesday, August 3rd, 2022 AT 11:05 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
Thank you very much. We all appreciate it and are glad to help people like you.

Take care,

Joe
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Thursday, August 4th, 2022 AT 4:43 PM
Tiny
JAMESB2019
  • MEMBER
Hello guys,

I have an update on this transmission issue: I last told you that Cottman Transmission shop took the car on July 27, 2022, and by August 3rd, 2022, he and his rebuilders decided to do a swap after $540.03 inspection, servo cover and pan replacement and $1446.63 for the swap itself out the door. Here is what happened after that:
1. Cottman Transmission calls me: "Transmission is in the car and swap is complete but won't come out of first gear."
2. Cottman Transmission calls me: "It needs shift Solenoids."
3. Cottman Transmission calls me: "Solenoids have been replaced, but it does not have 2nd or 3rd gear. I need to take it out and disassemble it to find the issue."
4. It is August 26, 2022. Cottman Transmission calls me: "Car is ready."
5. I pick up the car after paying an additional $1014.54 making the total after one month: $3001.22
6. I drove the car 7 miles to the house and went to bed on Friday night. Saturday afternoon:
30-inch plus diameter Transmission Fluid puddle all over the driveway.
7. I called Cottman Transmission. He said: "bring the car right away." I did (This morning: August 29, 2022) after making sure transmission fluid level was still acceptable.
8. Few hours later, he called me: "car is ready." I went in. He said: "that was not transmission fluid. It was Coolant." I said, I know coolant dropped below acceptable lever after adding and I spilled some too. But the fluid is red, viscous, smells like transmission fluid and when mixed with water did not mix." Naturally, he thought I was opposing his builder's conclusion. He got upset a little. I immediately responded. I may very well be wrong but that was what I knew transmission fluid to be and tried to calm the situation before I lost his professional services. I immediately remembered that our driveway is part level; part inclined. I mentioned it to him. He responded: "hang on; don't go anywhere. The car is on the Lift; I will have my builder lower one end to see what happens."
9. Few minutes later: "Yup! It is leaking!" "The Dip Stick had been broken and JB Welded: Bring me a dip stick, and I will install it for you after which I am washing my hands of this car." By the way, it is a great car really.

On the way back to the house, I decided to take a long drive to give the ECM a chance to clear itself: The car drove beautifully. It felt as though I was driving a 2022 SUV! It shifted nicely and sturdy and smooth. I was supposed to get the Inspection renewed, and on the way to do so, the Check Engine Light Illuminated. No, I did not lose it. I am still here! I had it scanned: It said: Heated Oxygen Sensor Bank2 Sensor2. I will have the HO2 B2S2 replaced and clear the ECM and then get it inspected tomorrow unless Zues and Persephone are looking for a Sisyphus, then I will definitely wash my hands of this car as well even though this G6 is awesome and would not want to sell it for less than 10000 dollars!) By the way, is B2S2 O2 sensor towards the nose of the car or toward the dashboard? Right or left? If you can't answer that in this section; I will open a new question. I also need to ask a question about the brake light switch. It seems to be stuck in on position and was wondering if I took it out to test it or replace it, will it affect the actual braking (I mean besides the obvious: brake light not operating properly)

Well, Guys, it's been a learning experience. The good news is that I have another 4T65E FR3 transmission now (the one that needed the reluctor and the new harness) sitting on the bench, I am tempted to replace them and see what the problem was! But then again, I should let go. I think!
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Monday, August 29th, 2022 AT 4:15 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
Hi,

Wow, what a nightmare. However, I'm glad it's working now. As far as the o2 sensor, B2S2 means bank 2 sensor 2. That will be the downstream sensor. Bank 2 is the front bank. See pic 1 below.

The remaining pics explain how B2S2 is replaced.

I hope this helps.

Take care and let me know.

Joe

See pics below. Note, the last pic shows the sensor's location.
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Monday, August 29th, 2022 AT 7:01 PM
Tiny
JAMESB2019
  • MEMBER
Yes, I will. Thank you.
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Monday, August 29th, 2022 AT 8:56 PM

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