Enging Light On - P0455 & P0304

Tiny
JONATHANBUSSEY
  • MEMBER
  • 2002 SATURN SC1
  • 1.9L
  • 4 CYL
  • 2WD
  • MANUAL
  • 300,000 MILES
Engine light on. I used to able to clean the EGR valve and it would go off for about a month. This time stayed on and the engile idle is rough. I tried changing the EGR valve with a second hand one cleaned up but no change. I tried changing the TP, IAC, Front O2 and MAP sensors, plugs, plug wires and coil and no change with any of those. I tried running the engine and taking off one plug wire at a time and then tried removing the wires to the fuel injectors one at a time and the result seemed to be the same for each. I cleaned out the Fuel injectors and still no change. I measured the ohms on all the injectors and they are good. I tested the temp sensor but it seems to be working fine. I could not measure the compression as I do not have a device to do this. I did, however, remove the plug wires anc cranked the engine and it seemed to be a perfect rhythm. So it did not seem to be a compression issue. I did change the fuel filter as it has the fuel regulator built in for the 02 Saturn SC1 but did not change the actual fuel pump in the tank, I assume. Still no change. I did not change the Knock sensor. The car has 299,000 KM on it and I am scared that it might cost more to get it diagnosed than the car is worth. Car drives fine and other than the VERY rough idle and engine light on, it gets around. The issue is I will soon need a Emissions test in order to get the stickers renewed. Any suggestions on other potential causes?

Origional code reading before all of the changes: P1128 and P0172

After all of the changes I ran the car for about 2 weeks before I had the chance to put it back on the meter. Then I got: P0455 & P0304

I got some interesting freeze frames:

AS SOON AS STARTED: Fuel sys1- CL, Load_PCT 42.4%, ETC-117deg C, SHRTFT1= -2.5%, LONGFT= -6.3%, MAP- 13.3KPa, RPM 1482, VSS- 30km/h, TP- 0% and I also took Sys Status as soon as I started: MIL status-ON, misfire monitor- OK, Fuel sys Mon- OK, Comp component-OK, catalyst min-INC, Htd catalyst- N/A, Evap system mon- ok, Sec Air system- INC, Oxygen sens Mon- Ok, Oxygen sens Htr- ok, EGR system- ok.

AFTER SEVERAL MIN: I will only type the ones that changed: for the Freeze frame: ETC was now at 47deg C, SHRtFT1 was now at -2.3%, LONGFT1 stayed at -6.3%, MAP was now at 45KPa and stayed there, VSS was now at 49km/h. For the system status: Oxygen sens Mon was now INC, and EGR system was now INC. Everything else was the same.

One thing I should mention though is that certain times, and it happened again today, I can start the car and the light will not be on. Today I started it and immediately drove away. 40 min later I turned off the highway and the car came to an idle and within a min the light came on. That has happened before. Also, on times when I am driving I feel a slight studder in the engine. It doesn't do much but it is enought to feel.

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.
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Wednesday, December 11th, 2013 AT 12:10 PM

27 Replies

Tiny
SATURNTECH9
  • EXPERT
How did you test the engine coolant temp sensor?Does your scan tool read live data?What kind of spark plugs did you put in?Have you checked to make sure your canister purge solenoid isnt sticking open?Also your sure you have all the spark plug wires routed correctly?
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Wednesday, December 11th, 2013 AT 12:26 PM
Tiny
JONATHANBUSSEY
  • MEMBER
Temp sensor: I used an Ohm meter and placed the temp sensor in boiling water. As the temp rose from cold to high the ohm reading was consistant. Also, the engine temp meter in the dash is showing correctly as well and I thought it was getting it's reading from the sensor. Also, the fan comes on at appropiate times.

Plug wires are correct.

This is the first time I heard of the canister purge solenoid. I will check into that and get back.

Thanks for the reply.
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Wednesday, December 11th, 2013 AT 12:41 PM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
  • EXPERT
The way you checked the sensor is not the right way you only checked it up to the temp of boiling water. Most of the time the sensor starts miss reading at a higher temp. I use a scan tool and a infared temp gun to check them. Since on the later model saturns they only use one sensor for the gauge and the computer you can't use the gauge to tell if the sensor is good. They fail often I have 1999 saturn I have had for about 7yrs and have replaced min3 about 3 or 4 times.
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Wednesday, December 11th, 2013 AT 1:02 PM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
  • EXPERT
What kind of spark plugs did you put in?
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Wednesday, December 11th, 2013 AT 1:03 PM
Tiny
JONATHANBUSSEY
  • MEMBER
I put champion RC14YC in.

I just pulled the plugs out and they all appear to be burnin the same and compared with a color code online and they fall in the burning Good category.

Could I be getting a vaccume leak?
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Wednesday, December 11th, 2013 AT 4:38 PM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
  • EXPERT
Se3 if both vacuum lines are hooked up to the canister purge solenoid under the intake?Also inspect the pcv hose that goes from the intake manifold to the valve cover for clasping or holes.
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Wednesday, December 11th, 2013 AT 7:48 PM
Tiny
JONATHANBUSSEY
  • MEMBER
Thanks for the info. I bought a new temp sensor and also took the EVAP Solenoid off and tested it. It worked fine so I put it back on making sure all the vacuum lines were sealed. I ran the car for three days a now and NO LIGHT! Thanks again.

The car still idles pretty rough though and sometimes shakes the car. Any ideas on what could be causing this?
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Sunday, December 22nd, 2013 AT 8:16 PM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
  • EXPERT
Your welcome glad the light is off. What does the upper engine mount look like the one by the coolant bottle?
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Sunday, December 22nd, 2013 AT 9:28 PM
Tiny
JONATHANBUSSEY
  • MEMBER
The upper engine mount seems fine. Still idling a little rough.
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Monday, December 23rd, 2013 AT 5:36 PM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
  • EXPERT
How did you check the mount?Which style is it?The two styles each have a different way of ch3cling it. Post a pic of it.
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Monday, December 23rd, 2013 AT 8:06 PM
Tiny
JONATHANBUSSEY
  • MEMBER
I posted 3 pics from each angle. Hopefully you can see them.

Thanks
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Wednesday, December 25th, 2013 AT 7:26 PM
Tiny
JONATHANBUSSEY
  • MEMBER
See attached.
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Wednesday, December 25th, 2013 AT 7:33 PM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
  • EXPERT
The mount is shot its colapsed and torn replace it.
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Wednesday, December 25th, 2013 AT 7:38 PM
Tiny
JONATHANBUSSEY
  • MEMBER
Hello,

I changed the Motor mount and some of the shaking is gone but it still idles pretty rough, and it seems to studder just slightly every so often while driving; maybe once every min or so. The Engine light stayed off until about 100Km and then yesterday it came on again and then this morning went off and then later this evening came on again. I did a Scan and am now getting the original code that I used to get: P0172. I have posted a photo of the results. Please let me know if you have any ideas on what I should look at next.
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Monday, January 6th, 2014 AT 6:45 PM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
  • EXPERT
You probably have a vacuum leak coming from the intake manifold gasket.I have replaced tons of the gaskets on the 2000-2002 single cam engines. Get some carb spray and at idle spray around the intake gasket especially by the power steering pump. If the engine rpms go up down stalls etc you have a vacuum leak.
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Monday, January 6th, 2014 AT 7:06 PM
Tiny
JONATHANBUSSEY
  • MEMBER
Could I do the same with Brake cleaner?
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Monday, January 6th, 2014 AT 8:10 PM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
  • EXPERT
You can I like to use carb spray though.
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Monday, January 6th, 2014 AT 8:13 PM
Tiny
JONATHANBUSSEY
  • MEMBER
What purpose has the rear O2 sensor? I have not changed that nor suspected it. Could it have anything to do with this problem?
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Tuesday, January 7th, 2014 AT 8:19 AM
Tiny
SATURNTECH9
  • EXPERT
The rear o2 sensor mainly is to see how the cats are working. Have you checked for a leaking intake manifold gasket yet?Only takes a few mins like I told you to also have you checked the pcv hose from the intake to valve cover for clasping or holes?
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Tuesday, January 7th, 2014 AT 9:53 AM
Tiny
JONATHANBUSSEY
  • MEMBER
PCV valve and hose appear in good condition and I ensured no leaks at all.

I also sprayed some Brake Cleaner all around the intake twice today and did not get any response from the engine. I may have to try it with Carb cleaner as the spray was more direct than an actual spray.

I did some Live data scanning today with my meter and would like to tell you the results to see if it indicates or supports a vacuum leak or anything else.

After car was warmed up, no Engine Light on, I hooked up the scanner.
1. Engine idling around 769Rpm
2. Engine Ignition timing Advance Cyl#1- 11 Degrees Advance (+)
3. Closed Loop Control using Oxygen Sensor - Normal
4. Intake Manifold Pressure 53kPaA or 7.7PsiA
5. SHORT TERM FUEL TRIM: approx 33.59-36%, Lean(-) (I assume that means -33.59%).
6. Long Term Trim 0% (Was setting at idle)
7. Coolant Temp: 64 Deg C, 147.2 Deg F
8. Intake Air Temp: +4 Deg C, 39, 2 Deg F (***this was odd bec it was -12 Deg C outside at the time).
9. O2 Sensor 1 approx 0.935 V when Short term fuel trim at 19.53% Lean(-)
10. O2 Sensor 2 was approx 0.855V

After I started to drive the Long Term Fuel Trim started to go up then settled down at 0.78% Lean(-) and the Short Term FT: 0% and not fluctuating at all. I checked the Fuel Sys Status and it showed as in "Open Loop Control due to System Fault". When I let up on the gas the Long Term FT switched to 4.69% Lean(-), then as soon as I pushed the gas back to 0.78% and back and fourth. I then reset the system.

Note: As I was driving the Intake Air Temp sensor slowly dropped to -8 Deg C but that took 40 min and as I stated it was -12 Deg C outside.

Note: The car never warms up past 1/4. Is this normal? Could this indicate a bad Thermostat?

So after I reset the system I kept driving and it went back into Closed Loop using O2 sensors. The Short term FT started fluctuating again anywhere from 5%- 50% Lean(-) and the Long Term FT fluctuated between 15% - 21% Lean(-) and seemed to stay around 21.88% Lean(-). The only way to get the Short Term FT to show in the plus was to push the gas peddle significantly and hold it. Then and only then would the short term FT go in the positive: Rich(+).

As I was driving I had to come to a stop due to traffic and within min the engine Light came on and I drove the rest of the way to my destination.

Once Parked I let the car idle and looked at the final readings:
1. Coolant Temp: 74DegC, 165.2 Deg F
2. Intake Air Temp: -4DegC, 24.8 Deg F
3. O2 Sensor 1: 0.590V, Short Term FT was 50% Lean(-)
4. O2 Sensor 2: 0.215V
5. Fuel Sys was still in Closed Loop Control
6. Ignition Timing Advance Cyl#1 showed as 15 Deg Advance(+)
7. Intake Manifold Pressure 46-50kPaA or 7.3 PsiA

DTC: P0132- O2 Sensor High Voltage Bank1 Sensor 1

I drove home later in the day and put the scanner on again to get the Freeze Frame and the only code that was showing then was P0172- Fuel Trim too Rich. Attached is the Freeze Frame picture for when this code was detected.

Note: Several months ago I noticed that one of the bolts on the EGR valve was stripped so I used a sealant when I put it back on. The second bolt went tight so I did not think it too much of an issue and with the sealant I do not think that it is leaking, as it would be noticeable bec of the noise.

Note: There are no exhaust leaks.

Note: Sometimes at idle the fumes coming from the car exhaust smell very bad.

I don't think it is the fuel regulator bec I put a new fuel regulator on the car last year. Could I possibly have a bad fuel pump?

The DTC seems to come mostly when the car goes into idle. It does idle VERY rough.

Let me know if there are any specific tests that I can do to pinpoint the problem.

I appreciate all of this help that you are giving me! Thanks.
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Wednesday, January 8th, 2014 AT 6:53 PM

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