1996 Chrysler Cirrus We need help!

Tiny
KHLOW2008
  • EXPERT
Symptoms indicates a possible fault with the Mass Air Flow sensor and I would suggest checking that. Sometimes when a component is failing, it does not throw any codes as it could be intermittent.

P0171 is quite often related to MAF.
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Saturday, July 17th, 2010 AT 1:46 PM
Tiny
JDEESE
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We will definitely look into that. In researching the problem I have come across this being a solution. However we have also come up wirth the oxygen sensors causing a lot of these problems.

What do you think?
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Saturday, July 17th, 2010 AT 10:09 PM
Tiny
KHLOW2008
  • EXPERT
As a matter of fact, both of them seems to act as a couple, they tend to go hand in hand.

Quite often the O2 sensor would throw a trouble code.

If you are able to get onto a scanner to retrieve the freeze framedata, that would be the best way to understand what could be wrong.
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Sunday, July 18th, 2010 AT 2:43 AM
Tiny
JDEESE
  • MEMBER
What are the chances that replacing the 2 oxygen sensors will just be a waste of time and money? Is there any way other than freezeframe data to troubleshoot this problem? My neighbor thinks we should drop the muffler system down and knock out the catalytic converter with anything we can fit in there. We just need it running again to get us to our appointments. The kids are starting school soon and the doctors is 40 miles away.

We already got new oxygen sensors but I am worried that if I put them in it may not solve the problem. That would be nearly 100 dollars that could be spent elsewhere, like school supplies for the 4 boys. Is there something we should try first?
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Friday, July 23rd, 2010 AT 10:42 AM
Tiny
KHLOW2008
  • EXPERT
Replacing the O2 sensor is not likely to resolve the problem as O2 sensors would not normally cause the engine to stall and cannot be started.

You need to perform diagnostic test when the engine stalled and could not be started. Find out if it is fuel or igniton sparks that is causing the problem. Without localising the source, it would be looking for a needle in a haystack.
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Friday, July 23rd, 2010 AT 11:30 AM
Tiny
JDEESE
  • MEMBER
I am a little confused. If it starts and runs fine until it gets hot wouldn't that somewhat narrow down what it could be? How could it be not getting fuel and spark other than one of the sensors overheating and malfunctioning?

Could the hose connected to the purge canister solenoid having come off caused this? Now that it is back on I tried idling in the driveway for a while pressing the gas a bit to try to get it hot, then drove it around the block a bit with no problems. Just don't want to get so far we will need to tow it again. The check engine light didn't come on.

Have also tried pinching the hoses going into what Iam pretty sure is the MAF sensor, in front of the engine. This has no effect on how the car idles, which seems strange to me. But then again I don't know much about this.
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Saturday, July 24th, 2010 AT 12:45 PM
Tiny
KHLOW2008
  • EXPERT
If the engine is stalling after heating up, it should be temperature related and items to look at are :

1. Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor.
2. Ignition coils.
3. Wire harness connectors.
4. Fuel Pumps

You need to confirm what is missing when it stalls and could not be started, fuel or ignition sparks.
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Saturday, July 24th, 2010 AT 11:37 PM
Tiny
JDEESE
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Still can't get the car to a shop. It will drive around the block twice. As you push it a bit it begins to hesitate. This continues until it no longer will go at all. It pretty much acts the same at that point as our first post. Only it just completely dies instead of staying on as before.

The first few times you try to start it it starts and sputters out quickly. One time it stayed on but as soon as I put it in drive and went to take off it reacted the same way again.

The best I could do to check the things you mentioned was, check for spark, which was fine. Then check the gas pressure under the hood. We had checked this before and it had plenty. This time it just trickled out. Leading me to believe the fuel pump may be the issue.

As I tried to keep it started in the driveway it did start up almost normal at one point. It stayed on for about a minute. I noticed two things, one it let out a bit of a cloud of smoke when it first started. Second after it died out I noticed a very faint hissing noise which Icould not pinpoint the origin. It lasted maybe twenty seconds. Not a noise that I had ever heard before.

My neighbor and I were thinking about dropping the whole exhaust system and seeing if it still has the same problem to rule out the catalytic converter. However that leaves the car without the oxygen sensors plugged in so I am not sure the car will even operate that way.

The other option would be to just replace the fuel pump but again would hate to put out another 100 dollars just to see if that is the problem.

As for your other suggestions, wire harnesses and the engine coolant temperature sensor. With the wire harnesses there are so many I am not sure were to start. The sensor is only like 30 dollars so if it is worth trying we could probably do that. I am pretty sure it is the sensor in the top left side of the engine. In looking at the sensor it has hardened white stuff on the showing threads, and looks as if it has never been replaced. Not sure if that means anything, or how to tell if it is not working.

The only other thing is the check engine light did not come on at all. My neighbor did erase the codes last time he used his scannner, but I was expecting the light to come on again.
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Monday, July 26th, 2010 AT 7:45 PM
Tiny
KHLOW2008
  • EXPERT
Symptoms indicates it is related to the fuel pump so we can forgo the others for now. We need to get the fue pressure up first.

CHECKING FUEL PUMP
1.Turn ignition off. Disconnect fuel pump relay. For fuel pump relay location, See Fig. 51. Using scan tool in voltmeter mode, check voltage on fuel pump relay connector fused ignition switch output circuit. See
Fig. 35. If voltage is more than 10 volts, go to next step. If voltage is 10 volts or less, repair open fused ignition switch output circuit.

2.Install a substitute relay. Attempt to start engine. If engine does not start, go to next step. If engine started, replace fuel pump relay.

3.Reinstall original fuel pump relay. Disconnect fuel pump harness connector, Inside Trunk On Left Side, Near Base Of Shock Tower. Turn ignition on. Using scan tool, actuate ASD fuel system. Using scan tool in voltmeter mode, check voltage of fuel pump relay output circuit at fuel pump connector (harness side). If voltage is more than 10 volts, go to next step. If voltage is 10 volts or less, repair open fuel pump relay output circuit.

4.Turn ignition off. Using scan tool in ohmmeter mode, check resistance of fuel pump ground circuit at fuel pump connector (harness side) Black/Light Green wire. If resistance is less than 5 ohms, replace fuel pump. If resistance is 5 ohms or more, repair open fuel pump ground circuit.


https://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/192750_FuelPumpRelay96CirrusFig35_1.jpg



https://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/192750_FuelPumpRelay96CirrusFig51_1.jpg

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Tuesday, July 27th, 2010 AT 10:09 AM
Tiny
JDEESE
  • MEMBER
Checked all of that. The last step was the one step that went wrong. At the wire harness the ground was between 6 and 7. We are not sure how to fix this.

While we checked that we took a look at some other things as well. First off we tried to get the car to turn over, unlike before it wouldn't turn over at all. We then decided to check the gas pressure. This time it actually seemed to have plenty of pressure in the line. We wondered if maybe it was the injectors, so we put the meter on the ones we could get to. They seem to be working. When we turned the key we could hear the fuel pump turning on faintly.

Don't really get why it won't turn over at all today. Would think it would continue to do the same thing as before. ?FRUSTRATING!
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Tuesday, July 27th, 2010 AT 2:16 PM
Tiny
JDEESE
  • MEMBER
We called a couple local repair shops to see about getting the car looked at. They all want around 60 dollars just to diagnose the problem. Some asked a bit about what was wrong. Only one really offered up his opinion of what may be wrong.

He said that when the crank shaft position sensor and or the throttle position sensor go bad they can cause the catalytic converter to get clogged up. Of course these were two of the first issues we thought we had, and have replaced those sensors. Him saying this though has me back to thinking we should drop the exhaust system to rule that out as a problem.

I am still not sure if the car is going to run without the oxygen sensors though. From what Ihave read the oxygen sensors tell the car how much fuel the engine needs to run properly. Knowing that I would thiink they are necessary for it to run.

He also went on to say that he doubts the fuel filter has ever been changed. This has been another thought of mine. This along with what we found following your help about the ground circuit relay, are other things high on my list of things that may be wrong. The mechanic said if the fuel filter needs to be change it could cause gas pressure to weaken during driving and cause it to stall the way it has. He said along with the ground issue being a possible culprit.

All of the places we called had one thing in common that it could get pricey which for us now even the 60 dollars for diagnoses is. Hopefully we can find a way to address these three possible issues on our own. Luckily my neighbor has some know how and tools including welding if needed on the exhaust. So that will be big help if we have to get to that point.

If you could let us know about the ground circuit repair that would be one less possiblility. That would leave the other two and possibly replacing the oxygen sensors if needed if we are still having problems.

Unless I am missing something I think we may be getting close to the solution. Hopefully!
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Thursday, July 29th, 2010 AT 10:11 AM
Tiny
KHLOW2008
  • EXPERT
If the ground circuit has 6 or 7 ohms, that means the grounding point is either loose or contaminated. Check the grounding point at center of deck lid opening, I am not sure where that is.

When you mentioned it won't turn over, does that mean it is cranking and not firing up or not even cranking at all?

Did you check for sparks?
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Thursday, July 29th, 2010 AT 10:40 AM
Tiny
JDEESE
  • MEMBER
We will try to figure out the grounding issue. That doesn't sound too hard.

As far as the car turning over I am meaning the engine running. It had been running for at least a few seconds. We just ckecked for spark and it was fine. Shortly after we checked the spark is when it stopped turning over. We will have to check that again once we take care of the ground issue.

Do you think dropping the exhaust to try to rule out those possible issues would be worth doing? Would it run without the oxygen sensors?
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Friday, July 30th, 2010 AT 10:27 AM
Tiny
KHLOW2008
  • EXPERT
Yes, engine would run without exhaust but since you have fond some problem, get those checked first.

Regarding the ground, use another wire and splice it to the ground wire and find a sutable grounding point to test if it works.
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Saturday, July 31st, 2010 AT 9:19 AM
Tiny
JDEESE
  • MEMBER
So we finally gave in and took it to a shop. Although they seemed to have further complicated our problem. According to them the timing belt needs to be replaced, along with the water pump. He said if we don't replace the water pump it will probably go bad shortly after we replace the timing belt.

They said that until this is fixed they really can't diagnose the car. In getting the car to the shop the check engine light came back on, as we got the car to turn over for a bit. We actually got it turn over by pouring a little gas in the carb, making me think more about a fuel pressure problem. When we got to the shop he put his OBD II scanner on and it came up that the throttle position sensor voltage was too high. He said that when he checked that the wire harness was loose due to it not having the little locking piece, so he secured it.

They wanted 570 parts and labor. We priced out the parts on our own and they came to 145. My neighbor said it is not an easy job but that he knew how to do it and would help with it to save us the money. So I guess that is our next step, though Istill need to do something about the fuel pump ground circuit.

Hopefully this will get us somewhere with it. After the timing belt and fixing the ground Iplan to drop the exhaust to rule all of that out if necessary. If we still haven't figured it out we may take it back to the shop to have it diagnosed, though we have already paid $25 and they want $35 more to diagnose it further. Hopefully they will still do that after we do the belt and pump on our own. Wish I had become a mechanic long ago, money seems to be coming in even in this bad economy.
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Wednesday, August 4th, 2010 AT 12:22 PM
Tiny
KHLOW2008
  • EXPERT
Yes, seems the fuel pump is the cause of the no start. Get the fuel pump ground circuit secured and retest.

Once the fuel problem is resolved and engine is running, you might not need to bother about the exhaust.

I wanted to retire as a mechanic and change to another job but never got the chance. Not being a mechanic is not a loss. If you think it is a good source of income, you are wrong, or maybe I am doing it wrong?

If you require any info on the timing belt job, let me know.
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Wednesday, August 4th, 2010 AT 12:43 PM

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