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Car will not crank

Tiny
BERNIE WORBY
  • MEMBER
  • 2012 FORD FOCUS
  • 2.0L
  • 4 CYL
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 73,000 MILES
This happens very infrequently less than 10% of the time, but I can do something sometimes that is really weird. Continue holding it in the start position for like ten seconds and then it cranks probably 50% of the time. This problems seems to happen more frequently when the car has been recently driven so it is warmed up. The battery, starter motor and thirty amp fuse going to the starter motor are good. The battery terminals have been cleaned and have great connections. The battery was also tested by Auto Zone. This problem may be because of the PAT system in the car. The dealer will not tell me which version of PAT that I have. They say they would have to see the car. I have looked really hard on the internet to resolve this issue.
Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much!
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Friday, November 3rd, 2017 AT 5:53 PM

20 Replies

Tiny
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  • MECHANIC
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To be honest I have never come across a PATS system that works on and off, it either is ok or it shuts down completely, if you can give me the VIN I may be able to look into the PATS a bit further just to be sure, but I would be thinking that it may be more a case of a faulty ignition switch, but the dealer can look into all this with the IDS laptop, they can watch every operation and make sure that PATS is working, are there any set codes, not all codes will set a check light.
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Saturday, November 4th, 2017 AT 3:07 PM
Tiny
BERNIE WORBY
  • MEMBER
  • 11 POSTS
Thank you so much for your response.I forgot to mention about the switch. It was the first thing changed when the problem started. The VIN is 1FAHP3F21CL321479. I am sorry I do not know anything about set codes. I have 2 keys and both exhibit the same error. I know a lot more about electronics than I know about the mechanics. I have worked on computers and other electronics since 1964. The main problem I have with the electronics in the cars is, I am unable to find good documentation. I had this in a highly rated local automotive repair shop off and on for more than 2 weeks. It is very hard to get it to fail sometimes. Based on my experience, electronics don't fail this way. Usually they are not intermittent for an extended period of time. My best guess is this is somehow related to a mechanical issue. I think a big key is, why when it fails does holding the key in the start position for much longer than normal allows it to start most of the time when the failure happens. I have tried to describe this as accurately as I can.

Thanks again,

Bernie
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Saturday, November 4th, 2017 AT 3:58 PM
Tiny
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Unfortunately what you may have to do is check at the starter solenoid wire when it fails, to see if you are getting a twelve volt signal. I know this may be hard to do because of the infrequently occurrence of the problem, if you go to a mechanic or a larger auto parts store, you should be able to get the fault codes checked while you wait. This will show if it is a PATS issue, depending on what code is set. I recommend that this is done first just to rule out any odd fault codes. Also, just make sure that the solenoid wire is clean and tight. I have seen similar problems with a dirty connector, it may look okay, but double check just to be sure.
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Saturday, November 4th, 2017 AT 4:43 PM
Tiny
BERNIE WORBY
  • MEMBER
  • 11 POSTS
The starter motor was replaced and then the old one was reinstalled after the problem persisted.

Thanks for your help. I will keep you abreast of what transpires.
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Saturday, November 4th, 2017 AT 7:06 PM
Tiny
BERNIE WORBY
  • MEMBER
  • 11 POSTS
Since Thursday I have tried to start it more than fifty times, with no faults. This afternoon I drove it for over half an hour then tried to start it while it was warm and got a failure after a couple of tries. Then tried it several times without a failure. Went back out after about fifteen minutes and it failed again after a couple of tries then I tried several more times without a failure. I am going to take it out later for a drive and see what happens. Do you happen to have access to an electrical schematic for the starter circuit and also how the PATS would be connected?

Thank you!
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Sunday, November 5th, 2017 AT 6:15 PM
Tiny
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The PATS has a control module and also requires input from other sources as well. I will chase down the schematic and get that off soon.
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Sunday, November 5th, 2017 AT 7:29 PM
Tiny
BERNIE WORBY
  • MEMBER
  • 11 POSTS
I took it out for another drive tonight, when I got back it did not fail after several starting attempts. So I went out and tried it again about twenty to thirty minutes later and I had two failures right from the start. Then I had no failures after several more starts. This is what I was trying to confirm today. The only thing I see that has any sense of consistency is the car has to be driven for fifteen to thirty minutes and then rest for ten to thirty minutes. This however is not cast in concrete because it does not always fail. I will look forward to the schematic. Thank you so much.
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Sunday, November 5th, 2017 AT 10:21 PM
Tiny
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I have broken up the information into three pieces, to try and get some better detail.
Images (Click to make bigger)
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Sunday, November 5th, 2017 AT 11:21 PM
Tiny
BERNIE WORBY
  • MEMBER
  • 11 POSTS
I got the pictures. Should help a lot.
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Monday, November 6th, 2017 AT 8:42 AM
Tiny
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Ok, I am very interested in knowing what you find out.
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Monday, November 6th, 2017 AT 1:53 PM
Tiny
BERNIE WORBY
  • MEMBER
  • 11 POSTS
Yes this is very unique.I really believe it is mechanical.I have never seen electrical fail this way.

I have no idea how the PATS ties in with the circuit. Ford doesn't even know which version of the PATS I have. So no clue to what components make up my PATS. Today I called a dealer service dept. And an electrical repair shop and have not received a call back from either one yet.
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Monday, November 6th, 2017 AT 5:44 PM
Tiny
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I have access to ford data base, post the VIN and I can look a bit deeper, can't guarantee anything as mine is Ford Aust so it may not show up.
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Monday, November 6th, 2017 AT 11:23 PM
Tiny
BERNIE WORBY
  • MEMBER
  • 11 POSTS
THANK YOU ! The VIN is 1FAHP3F21CL321479
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Tuesday, November 7th, 2017 AT 10:14 AM
Tiny
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They have pin point tests for a range of PATS fault codes, have you had a scan to see if any code are set? If so we may be on the way to fix this problem.
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Wednesday, November 8th, 2017 AT 12:52 AM
Tiny
BERNIE WORBY
  • MEMBER
  • 11 POSTS
Here is a JPG File. He got both keys from me and ran into a dead end.
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Wednesday, November 8th, 2017 AT 8:58 AM
Tiny
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It looks to me as being a problem in the BCM module, from what I can find, the PATS is integrated into the BCM ford can do what is called an on demand test on the BCM, this is a deep scan, more so than a general code retrieval and identification, let me know if you can get this done at a local dealer.
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Friday, November 10th, 2017 AT 4:16 AM
Tiny
BERNIE WORBY
  • MEMBER
  • 11 POSTS
Have an appointment Tues morning. Hope it fails. Will let you know what happens. TY

Happy Veterans day
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Friday, November 10th, 2017 AT 11:21 PM
Tiny
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Here in Australia we mark 11th Nov as Remembrance day much the same as your veterans day I would think, at 11AM the last post is played and everywhere people stop what they are doing and observe a minuets silence.
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Saturday, November 11th, 2017 AT 3:06 AM
Tiny
BERNIE WORBY
  • MEMBER
  • 11 POSTS
Thank you for all of your responses. The dealer replaced the transmission control module. The best thing is there was no cost. Because of all of the transmission problems, the warranties had been extended to 100 and 150 k miles. Thanks again and have a great evening.

Bernie
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Tuesday, November 21st, 2017 AT 5:32 PM
Tiny
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That surprises me that they replaced the TCM, there is a connection with the TCM and the BCM and PCM I would not think that the problem would have gone back to a faulty PCM but stranger things have happened, end result is that they have found a problem and you are all sorted, thank you for using 2carpros.
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Tuesday, November 21st, 2017 AT 8:46 PM

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