1991 Lincoln Mark VII V8 Two Wheel Drive Automatic 220000 miles
Car developed a problem a short while after the last brake job, new pads and turned rotors, nothing big. Pistons and seals all looked very good and were reassembled with brake lube. Have done the job multiple times on this car with no issues, and this time was no different. Braking was fine after the job was completed.
Rear brakes were dragging after application of pedal for about 2 seconds. As pressure appeared to bleed off, normal operation of car, no dragging. Pushing on pedal would re-create. Tapping on pedal didn't seem to be so pronounced.
No codes from ABS unit when shorting pins 4 & 5 on ABS connector and checking dash lamp with Key On.
ABS passes self test at startup, remains on about 4 seconds after car starts and then goes out.
Presumed this problem is isolated to the Teves II ATE Solenoid Control Valve Body. Removed unit from car and removed cover, found lower center valve in the body severely discolored. Almost black, like it was burning. Checked resistance of all 6 solenoids and all measure 3-8 ohms per the shop diagnosis section. No short to ground condition found.
Replaced Solenoid Control Valve body with a unit from another used car, (140K) and now the front brakes are exhibiting the exact same problem, but rears are OK! (I checked all 6 solenoids in this unit, and color and resistance measurements were again within spec.)
To me, this sounds like the dump (N/C) solenoid/valves are stuck closed and not opening properly at the end of the normal braking operation.
I can test the solenoids for shorted (to case) and open conditions, but I cannot test the solenoids for proper operation.
I do not know if they take a +5V signal or a +12V signal to activate. And I don't want to burn them out with too much voltage. And I can't seem to find my +5V power supply at the moment.
I would also like to know if there are any rebuilding services that can clean/test/replace these ATE solenoids. If I could get known good/clean solenoids, I could replace them easily enough. The plastic circuit board is similar to things that I have soldered on before. Easy does it!
Rear flexible hose has been replaced.
Accumulator pressure and pump still operate just fine.
All calipers have been rebuilt and assembled with brake lube.
System has been bled multiple times with clean fluid.
I just can't figure (or find a proper Theory of Op's manual that would explain.) How anything in the actual master cylinder unit would restrict back flow of fluids. Everything points to the control valves that I read. It is just that NONE of the diagnosis charts outline how to test these beyond simple ohmmeter checks. No listed symptoms match the problem!
The fact that I have changed the symptoms (rear to front) by changing the control valve makes me believe I am on the right track. However, the next time I do this job, I want it to be the last! (On this car anyway!) It is a real bugger to do. Not to mention VERY messy!
Hope you can help with some info on suppliers/rebuilders or a way to test these with voltage and an air supply etc!
Hi fastmerc1. Welcome to the forum. You obviously know a pile about this system so let me change directions for a minute. One thing I've read about many times but never saw myself was a constricted rubber brake hose, that is until it happened to one of my vehicles, and then to a student's two weeks later. I realize the symptoms changed wheels on your car, but just for fun, look for a rubber hose that has a metal bracket crimped around the middle of it. Since the two I experienced, I've been reading about this quite often. Rust builds up inside that crimp and squeezes the hose. Foot pressure on the pedal will force fluid to the caliper but it can't get back to the reservoir so easily so that brake sticks on. Under light pedal pressure, that brake won't apply so it won't stick either. Simply opening up that crimp with a channel lock pliers will solve that problem. On my '89 Grand Caravan, the additional symptom was the brake pedal was very high and hard, almost like stepping on a rock. The student didn't notice that on his '95 Neon, but he did notice one front brake getting hot. Once he had the wheel off, it took longer to fetch the pliers than to make the repair. This problem has been occurring on the rear brakes of the Dodge Stratus now too and its twins, and I've read about it on other brands of cars.
I have a feeling you don't have an ABS problem because a sticking valve, although extremely uncommon, would block pressurized fluid longer than just two seconds, and the chances of a valve sticking partially open or closed at exactly the same spot is very unlikely. What would be more likely would be some crud getting pushed up a hose when you pressed the pistons back into the calipers to make room for the new pads, but even there the junk would be more likely to fall down behind the pistons. You would have seen that when you had them apart. (There aren't many people around anymore who can rebuild a caliper). I would suggest the lip of the dust boot popped out of its groove on one of the calipers as I used to have a lot of trouble with Fords, but since the problem sounds like it started before you had them apart, that isn't too likely either.
Do I understand from your description that you have a three channel system with the two rear brakes working together for the ABS function? I'm more familiar with the Teves systems on the Dodge Intrepid but we worked on them so seldom that I don't remember very much.
I didn't mention some of the other things do-it-yourselfers run into that cause problems because you obviously aren't a do-it-yourselfer. I assume you know about brake fluid contaminated with petroleum product and the problems it causes. Heck, a lot of " professionals" don't even understand the need for high-temperature brake grease! Also, what about grooves worn into the caliper mounts causing a pad's backing plate to catch and not release freely? I've welded up cast iron ABS tone rings for my '95 Grand Caravan, but I've only seen other people weld on cast iron caliper mounts to build the worn area up. It takes a long time to preheat them. Seems it would be simpler to install shims or find a good used knuckle in the salvage yard.
If I'm way off base, let me know so I can delete this reply. If I don't delete it, other people will see you already got a reply so they may not read your post. Otherwise you can repost it again so the experts will see it.
October, 25, 2010 AT 3:44 AM
BTDT with the corroded crimp thing on the rubber line.
If you look, I mention replacing the flexible line in the rear (common point of failure). As it was fairly cheap, and supposedly easy. It did absolutely nothing to change symptoms. Replaced a perfectly good hose!
I learned from an old Bendix Brakes instructor about opening bleeder valves when collapsing pistons. Made perfect sense! He also said to put a 2x4 under the brake pedal when bleeding brakes manually so that you don't push the seal over potentially " unused" (and severely dorked up) sections of the bore that could cause the (otherwise good) seal to hang up and develop a leak.
I had switched to Castrol LMA fluid years back due to it's low moisture absorbtion characteristics, and it get's flushed fairly regularly, or when I see it darkening. And a brake job is coming up!
This problem started after I had done the last brake job, but " well after". Ie it had been in normal use for weeks or months. Before I was told about this behavior popping up.
It was only after swapping out the control valve block last week, that the symptoms changed to the fronts. The M/C should isolate these two areas from each other. But like I said, I could find no info that was detailed enough. No blow out pictures.&Quot; parts views". Nothing!
Since the control valve replacement requires 85% of the work required to change out the entire actuator/M/C assembly, I really do not want to " get good at it". And I would like to find a way to test these things on a bench, reliably OR find a shop that can do this.
There are plenty of shops out there doing fuel injectors, there must be someone doing Teves ATE solenoids? I hope!
This one is driving me nuts.
Thanks for your reply!
October, 25, 2010 AT 4:31 AM
: ) I always taught my students to never push the brake pedal more than half way to the floor, as you mentioned. One "professional" told me off royally a year ago for suggesting he wrecked the master cylinder. He said he had been bleeding brakes that way for 20 years and I didn't know what I was talking about. I suggested he got real lucky for 19 years, 11 months. He got mad and went off to play with, ... I mean BY himself.
October, 25, 2010 AT 5:34 PM
OK, searching for Teves Repair is like searching for Ford Hubcap or something inane. Or in your world, go to Google and type in FM Radio. Not terribly helpful if you are looking for a Blaupunkt FM radio from 1969. Teves was used a LOT in it's Mark IV form. Which changed a lot from this Mark II config!
I've previously searched for Teves Mark II Solenoid Repair and come up with about 380 hits, of which two or three are this thread(!), A bunch on bleeding your ABS brakes, multiple reading your ABS codes, a boatload on " watch out for that accumulator pressure, " or your accumulator is bad. Replace it, a couple from the Mark VII boards that I have been working with, a GREAT post by a guy named Duffy, who has one of the BEST descriptions of this ABS system, links to SCCOA, and links to the BMW forum where they have similar problems with their cars, but are plagued by a bad circuit board problem(which for them always throws codes!). Something that I am not. For some reason, their control unit gets corrosion in it. Not an issue in the two that I popped open! Probably because this one is mounted just above the left exhaust header!
This leaves the other 80% of the websites as foreign web-browser BS that have nothing to do with what you want at all. Or anything else. They are just out harvesting IP addresses. Or selling their search services.
You were able to find services that repaired instrument panels. And that is great, but it has nothing to do with my braking system. And no, I was not able to find a service to repair solenoid valve bodies. Had I done so, I wouldn't be here.
I have yet to try IATN or whatever, but I thought that is what I was getting here. ASE professional experience. No? (BTW Their reference to Google Groups is totally whacked. And out dated!)
I'll attempt tossing Mark IV into the mix but am not holding out much hope.
SO, I am still back to the " who and where" can I get these solenoids cleaned or serviced? OR how can I do it?
I find no websites related to this. Must be top secret! I cannot even find where to buy a solenoid.
While I thank you very much for your assistance,
my initial questions and concerns remain unaddressed.
October, 25, 2010 AT 10:36 PM
Some of what you're asking is proprietary information that no one will divulge, in particular when you get inside any computer module. You're right about it being top secret. I could have easily repaired that digital cluster if anyone would have sold me the schematic diagram, but the manufacturers have that all locked up and to hell with their customers. The almighty buck is more important now than their loyalty later.
One thing I did notice in your original post was "To me, this sounds like the dump (N/C) solenoid/valves are stuck closed and not opening properly at the end of the normal braking operation." In fact, there should be no valves moving, activating, or changing positions during normal braking. If you remove both fuses, the base brake system should operate just like on any other car except you won't have power assist on models that use pressurized brake fluid for that function. Only during an ABS stop is when the "block" solenoid activates, then the "bleed" (dump) solenoid, then the block one releases. If the dump valve sticks open, you'll have a lower than normal brake pedal, and if it sticks closed you'll have wheel lockup that the computer can't resolve. That will not be detected or set a fault code because operation of the valves is not physically monitored. Only electrical continuity is monitored for proper resistance by the computer. If a valve were to stick physically, the computer would still think it had control of it electrically. This is why I'm suspicious your problem is not in the ABS system but there's no denying the symptoms changed when you replaced the hydraulic assembly.
Thinking along a different line, why would one of the solenoids appear to be burned or overheated? They only operate for a few seconds during an ABS stop. Are you aware of the huge problem GM has with truck ABS pumps continuing to run until the fuse is pulled or the motor burns up? Is it possible there is something similar going on in the computer that is keeping that solenoid activated? I can't think of any other way for it to overheat.
I tried a different Google search under "teves abs solenoid 1991 Lincoln" and came up with a lot less hits but some of them looked promising. Here is the link to the fourth one down that you might want to look at:
Another link appears to have to do with an OTC ABS system tester that allows you to activate solenoids. They list two Teves versions for '91 Ford products. This was the eighth hit on the list.
October, 26, 2010 AT 11:16 AM
OK! Now you're getting into the area where I am stuck! Physically and mentally!
I keep wondering about the " normal braking" flow of fluid. Which none of the books address. They jump immediately into " abs mode" and take off writing from there. So any applied brake fluid pressure should release itself back up into the system when you let off of the brakes? No valves. This appears to be the issue as it is not happening.
I love the old Ford docs, like the 67ish C6 TOPS manual. It has colored lines showing pressure, return passages, valve positioning in the valve body, for all three gears, upshifting, reverse, etc. GREAT book for learning how an automatic trans functions!
I just reread the 1967 Air Conditioning book the other night to refresh the gray matter, for another project. And it too was very detailed in it's descriptions of how things work " normally" and then went on in the troubleshooting sections to describe what happens when things get plugged up etc.
I wish I had that for this crazy Teves system!
Anyway, last night I played with the old solenoid valve control block based upon what the guys in the BMW forum were doing. I could find nothing wrong with this!
I believe the " discolored" solenoid that I found was simply a manufacturing issue with material used on the end cover. The plating oxidized or was a different color already. This was the N/C rear solenoid and after dinking around with it using a 12V source and the 7 external pins of the connector, I determined that I could find nothing wrong. Not to say that there wasn't.I just could not be certain to a 100% level! No smoking gun.
I flushed the passages with brake cleaner, activated the solenoids and flushed again. Popped the N/C units out ( can't do the N/O ones due to short leads!) And checked for garp etc found none.
They all clicked and clacked when activated, and when hit with 120PSI of air, they did their job open and closed.
So, I am stumped still.
I like your description of the operation, as it would make sense that the system should operate if the main fuse went out. This is indeed one of the pressure activated units with an electric pump and an accumulator to hold the charge.
This stuff all seems to work just fine! At least when it is in the driveway, or when I drive it! After I discharged the system and changed (only) the valve block, the pump worked fine to recharge the system and I could hear it cycle on and off with each depression of the pedal, until the air was all bled out. Then it held pressure a little longer before requiring the pump to come back on. And it would shut off in very short order. Seems good!
So, in trying to think this to death.I am wondering what in the system would cause restrictions (or leaks!) To either the front or the rear portion of the system under normal braking conditions! Presuming that what you say is true, about the control valve block being passive under normal braking. Where are restrictions (or pressure leaks?) Possible?
Again, I don't understand exactly (inside the M/C assy) how high pressure fluid is routed to the outlet passages (thru the control valve and out to the brake lines) but I will presume that it is stored in the accumulator and from there a line takes it to the master cylinder bore, and from there to the solenoid valve body. And out. Once you relax from braking, the pressure is relieved back up thru the control valve block, up into the M/C and then back into the reservoir. Once pressure is depleted enough, the pump kicks back in and pumps up that section of the system. That's my understanding.
The only other device in the lines is a proportioning valve in the rear line, but that doesn't explain the issue now, with the fronts staying on.
Does the " main" valve hold fluid pressure until you step on the pedal, causing the main piston to pass over some passage in the bore then allowing fluid to flow out?
This is where the information stops.
Where does high (accumulator) pressure get introduced into the lines. That the pressure could leak past something and stay active in the lines?
What in this scenario would explain the changing of symptoms from rear to fronts if all the rest remained the same?
If I disconnect only the ABS main fuse, and not the fluid pump fuse, to keep the " normal" pressure up in the system, could this serve as a good test of anything? Or would both fuses need to come out?
The BBA-Reman outfit looks like they deal with European Fords. Galaxy? Not here yet! KA? They don't go as far back as what this system is!
As for proprietary info.I can't agree more! These cars are packed with more bells and whistle type stuff. That surely is engineered to fail at 99K miles. A certain " tripmeter" module comes to mind in this particular car! Followed by their AM-FM Cassette premium sound units.
Thanks again for your perseverance! This is a doozy! Hopefully something simple.
October, 27, 2010 AT 2:06 AM
" Again, I don't understand exactly (inside the M/C assy) how high pressure fluid is routed to the outlet passages (thru the control valve and out to the brake lines) but I will presume that it is stored in the accumulator and from there a line takes it to the master cylinder bore, and from there to the solenoid valve body. And out. Once you relax from braking, the pressure is relieved back up thru the control valve block, up into the M/C and then back into the reservoir. Once pressure is depleted enough, the pump kicks back in and pumps up that section of the system. That's my understanding. &Quot; There's only one small clinker in your thinker. When the accumulator stores high pressure brake fluid, an " apply" valve opens to send that fluid to the brake, so the sequence for an ABS stop is block, bleed, apply, block bleed, apply, typically around 15 times per second. This is how the Bendix-9 (GM) and Bendix -10 (Chrysler) work. One characteristic of these systems is the brake pedal does not drop slightly during the ABS function because no additional fluid is leaving the master cylinder unless the driver presses harder on the pedal.
On newer Chryslers, (what I consider newer), starting with the '96 model minivans, they also use the Teves system with six valves so there are no " apply" solenoids. The accumulator serves a different function. On these systems the fluid that is bled off to get wheel speed back up to match the others flows into the accumulator and is stored there. The apply fluid comes from your foot pressure on the pedal / master cylinder. Fluid from the accumulator flows back to the reservoir when you release the pedal. These systems still use a vacuum booster for power assist. I only have Chrysler service manuals to get the theory of operation, but I think yours works the same if there are only six valves. Do you in fact have a vacuum booster?
The only difference between the Bendix-9 and Bendix-10 is the second one has an extra valve that isolates the two rear brakes hydraulically during an ABS stop so each wheel is controlled independent of the other one. On the Bendix-9, both rear brakes are modulated when either one is about to lock up. For what it's worth, the ABS brakes on my '93 Dynasty are REAL effective, almost to the point of busting the seat belts, while a friend who is a local deputy says the Caprice Classic squad car takes forever to stop when the car is equipped with the Bendix-9 system, but the point is to maintain directional control, not shorter stopping distances.
There is another version of the Teves system used on Dodge Neons. That one still uses the vacuum booster but it has two pumps driven by one motor. The pumps send fluid from the accumulator back to the reservoir and they provide the high pressure fluid for the " apply" part of the " block, bleed, apply" sequence. There is no high pressure fluid stored in the accumulator. One big clue is there is no warning sticker on the accumulator telling you not to unscrew it!
October, 27, 2010 AT 9:46 AM
Car was MIA last nite, so no progress.
This " Lincoln" unit is a three piece, no vacuum booster affair. An adapter that bolts to the firewall (no connections to it), a booster piece (this is where the hard line from the pump/accumulator connects, and the actual M/C.
The system is of the 6 solenoid variety with 4 for the fronts (separate R & L) and two for the rear circuit which is shared.
You have pretty much said what I have found in the manuals already in: " the sequence for an ABS stop".
If I am reading you right, and applying it to my T/S process, my failure is during " non-ABS" braking, so the block, bleed, block, bleed scenario is not yet active. Ie solenoid valve activations.
What is the flow of fluid in a non-ABS stop? What " other" valves are in play.
THIS is the info that I cannot find!
My understanding is that the only other switch or valves is the one valve that determines release of high pressure fluid into the main bore, and then there is one switch that tells the pump to fill or provide more pressure to the accumulator circuit. In my case, these appear to be working. The pump pumps when it should, and pressure is being held until demanded. (Not leaking down)
I was hoping to pull the fuses last night on the car. But no car, so this still remains my plan of action.
If normal braking (as long as the accumulator has charge) produces the failure, then I must presume that the issue is in the main hydraulic unit (booster or M/C) some how. A leakage past a seal of sorts.
How the symptoms have changed from rears to fronts is still baffling, but we don't understand the flow of high pressure fluid in the M/C unit yet. There could be a common passageway that feeds the front and rear portions of the M/C (presuming that they are segregated). And one or both of the M/C seals are leaking pressure after the pedal is release. Or some check valve in the thing is not " unchecking".
I've no luck finding anyone that actually has taken one of these units apart! The units are simply replaced in whole. And either there is success or return to the wrecking yards to seek another part.
The Ford shop manual does not outline service for this unit. Replace as a whole!
Don't touch that dial!
October, 27, 2010 AT 11:47 PM
Fuses? We don't need no steenking fuses!
No fuses. Only fusible links. Ugh.
Tore apart the EVTM tonight trying to find the " two fuses" that everyone talks about. To pull them and try this thing with no abs.
Only things I can find to disable the system other than cutting wires. Is disconnecting C135 " Antilock power relay" and C157 " Hydraulic pump motor relay".
Or the main connector to the ABS module in the trunk, and then C157 pump motor relay. Would do the same thing but it would leave power to the " Main Hydraulic Valve" which I think is the valve that releases pressurized fluid from the accumulator into the booster and M/C areas. This would allow the system to work normally, minus ABS control, until the accumulator ran out.
October, 28, 2010 AT 12:21 AM
Do you have the original Ford service manual for this car? I tried to get into the Ford web site but they were having problems. Got in later but I can't access anything without putting in a VIN number. Do you have that?
Really wish I could look at a diagram instead of relying on my memory; ... You know, oldtimer's disease.