1991 Honda Accord After valve seal job: step on gas and it

Tiny
TERMIFLYER
  • MEMBER
  • 1991 HONDA ACCORD
  • 4 CYL
  • FWD
  • MANUAL
  • 240,000 MILES
We just replaced the valve seals on this car (it was burning oil but compression was good). We adjusted the valve clearances per spec and the timing seems to be right (I say "seems" because it's not exactly clear in the manuals what mark is used to adjust timing: we used the red mark). The car starts hard, but after it is going it idles fine. If you slowly increase RPMs, everything seems fine. If you increase RPMs at anything faster than an extremely low rate, the engine starts to stall or bog down, and will eventually stall if we don't return the throttle to Idle. Essentially, it has no power and won't take any gas.

Question 1: what's going on!

Question 2: you all seem knowledgeable. Is there a good technical book that connects how engines/cars work with troubleshooting? I am a technical guy and like to know how everything works, but have failed to find a good technical book on how cars work. What I'm looking for is a book that has in detail how cars work information, followed by extensive troubleshooting charts, and finally, the troubleshooting charts and how it works information is linked. For instance, in this case, troubleshooting charts lead to "engine bogs/lags/stalls when throttle is applied quickly" which then might have a list of things that might be wrong. One of them might be bad timing. The description for that cause would describe how bad timing causes this situation: e.G, "when the throttle is applied quickly and the timing is off, the exhaust cycle is at point X when the fuel is injected, resulting in.". As I write this, I realize how cool this resource would be and how much I've looked for it over the years, so I'm going to donate to hopefully find that elusive resource! May be asking for too much, but it's worth it. In addition to getting my car going!

Thanks,
Dave
Do you
have the same problem?
Yes
No
Wednesday, November 4th, 2009 AT 2:57 PM

14 Replies

Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
First, how did you check the timing, with the belt? Also, have you checked for vacuum leaks and fuel pressure? If you need a diagram of timing belt points, go to the belt routing diagram site on this page.

As far as the manual you discussed, I don't know of any one book that does that. However, I know we have access to the Mitchell online manual which will walk you through trouble shooting problems. Basically, you look up a problem and look for troubleshooting. Once you get to the correct trouble shooting page, then it will move to two different results from a test. For example:

engine fails to start > check for fuel to engine

> if pressure meets specs, .

> if no pressure, test for power.

That is available through Mitchell. Infact, I believe you can gain access to it by going to the "Car Repair Manuals" site on this page. There is a charge for it, but it would be worth checking out. I have been told it's much cheaper than purchasing a manual, and I know it has a ton of info on it. I use it often myself.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, November 4th, 2009 AT 8:49 PM
Tiny
TERMIFLYER
  • MEMBER
Here's how we checked the timing:

(1) To verify the camshaft was correctly aligned with the crankshaft, we removed the spark plug from cylinder 1, placed a screwdriver in the cylinder (handle down) and rotated that crank until cylinder 1 was at top-dead-center. We verified that the "UP" label on the timing gear was lined up with the mark on the housing.

(2) Hooked up a timing light and then adjusted the distributor housing such that the red mark on the "drive? Plate" lined up with the fixed indicator (this drive plate is I assume on the other end of the crackshaft just under the distributor, opposite end of the block from the timing gear/belt). There is also a white mark on this plate that is supposed to mark top-dead-center so I assume it's 15 deg from the red mark : if it means anything, when the engine "bogs down" with the timing light on, that white TDC mark shows up under the light. Not sure if that means anything or not.

We have not checked for vacuum leaks or fuel pressure.

Thanks for the guidance thus far.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, November 5th, 2009 AT 1:03 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
Is the TDC mark that you see lining up with the timing mark on the timing cover?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, November 5th, 2009 AT 1:34 PM
Tiny
TERMIFLYER
  • MEMBER
I will check this evening.

If it doesn't line up, what does that mean? In my mind I would think that by using the screwdriver directly on the cylinder to determine cylinder 1 top dead center sets the crankshaft position such that the white mark would HAVE to be lined up (isn't that white mark solidly attached to the crank?). In any event, i'll certainly check tonight.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, November 5th, 2009 AT 2:23 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
Yes, the mark is engraved on the harmonic balancer. However, when using a screw driver (and I have done it too so I could get close) can allow you to be off a tooth or two.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, November 5th, 2009 AT 9:19 PM
Tiny
TERMIFLYER
  • MEMBER
Okay, finally got a chance to verify the alignment: the white TDC mark on the drive plate does indeed line up when the timing gear "up" mark is lined up with its own white mark.

What should I check next?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Sunday, November 8th, 2009 AT 1:06 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
If the timing is correct, compuresson is good, and you have good spark, there is either a vacum leak or the converter is plugged. I can't thing of anything other. Have you checked those items?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Sunday, November 8th, 2009 AT 5:13 PM
Tiny
TERMIFLYER
  • MEMBER
I haven't checked for vacuum leaks. I'll have to look up how to do that. I suppose I should check fuel pressure also like your first post, now that we're through timing?

What "converter" are you speaking of?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Sunday, November 8th, 2009 AT 8:13 PM
Tiny
TERMIFLYER
  • MEMBER
Catalytic converter?

BTW, found "How to check engine vacuum" on your site. Thanks
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Sunday, November 8th, 2009 AT 8:27 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
Yes, the catylatic converter. It could be plugged. Also, fuel pressure testing is under the popular service repairs site. Go to More Service Repairs, and it is number 16.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Sunday, November 8th, 2009 AT 10:20 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
Yes, the catylatic converter. It could be plugging. Let me know how things go.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Sunday, November 8th, 2009 AT 10:41 PM
Tiny
TERMIFLYER
  • MEMBER
My step-son and his mother got impatient and we took it to the shop, but I'm glad we have this thread going based on the response.

They said "excess fuel pressure" and "blow-by", and that they would have to completely disassemble the engine to determine the problem. Obviously we wouldn't put the money into doing that, but I'm skeptical.

Correct me if I'm wrong: (1) Isn't fuel pressure regulated by the fuel pressure regulator and replacing the regulator would most likely take care of that? (2) We checked the compression before replacing the valve seals, and it was 180-180-140-180. Wouldn't we see much worse compression if blow-by was a significant problem?

Thanks,
Dave
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, November 12th, 2009 AT 4:15 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
Dave,

Yes and Yes. The fuel pressure regulator is attached to the fuel line. Here is a picture of a "rough" location for you and a picture of the regulator.


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/249084_reg_2.jpg




http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/249084_regg_1.jpg



As far as the "blow by," if it is excessive, you can tell by opening the oil cap when the engine is running. If it's excessive, a ton of air will blow out and based on how bad it is, it could actually puff smoke. Also, a plugged PCV valve could cause it to appear as if there is too much blow by. Its purpose is to provide a vent for the crankcase by drawing (vacuum) unburned fumes back into the intake for a second time.

Keep in mnd, you have great compression on 3 cylenders and okay on the 4th. Usually, the manufacturers recommend no more than a 10% variation between them, so you have exceeded that. However, that cylender still has more than enough compression to run. At most, I would expect a slightly rough idle.

One final thing. Here is a how to for checking fuel pressure. It also includes how to check the fuel pressure regulator to make sure it is working. It contains both written directions and a video. You may want to try checking it yourself. You will need a pressure gauge to do it, but most parts stores will lend or rent that to you. Also, if the regulator is bad, I've seen them for around 60 to 70 dollars.

Let me know if you have other questions.

Joe
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, November 12th, 2009 AT 5:23 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • EXPERT
Sorry, I hit submit too fast. Here are the directions for checking fuel pump pressure and the regulator:

http://www.2carpros.com/how_to/how_to_check_fuel_pressure.htm
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, November 12th, 2009 AT 5:25 PM

Please login or register to post a reply.

Recommended Guides