2002 Dodge Intrepid Transmission overfilled

Tiny
MRHARRIE
  • MEMBER
  • 2002 DODGE INTREPID
  • 138,185 MILES
I bought a 2002 Dodge Intrepid with a 2.7 L engine. The people that I bought it from said they thought it needed a timing chain changed. The said it was pinging a little bit before it died, so I thought it needed a new oil pump. I changed the timing chains, timing gears, crankshaft gear, oil pump, the water pump and thermostat. After putting it all back together I noticed that there was an excessive amount of transmission fluid in the transmission. I drained about 3 quarts from the pan without completely dropping it. It sounds like the starter don't turn over the motor very quick on the flex plate. If I change the valve body in the transmission will it allow the motor to turn over faster or is the transmission beyond repair?
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Friday, September 13th, 2013 AT 9:12 PM

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Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • EXPERT
I think you're doing more damage by not having the cause of the problem professionally diagnosed. The oil pump has nothing to do with anything you described for symptoms, and it should be left alone. Pinging is a thing of the past so the previous owner's comments have to be looked on with suspicion. It's very rare for timing chains to jump a tooth or two like timing belts do. Chains hardly ever cause a no-start. They DO sometimes make a rattling noise if they are stretched and slapping against a cover.

The transmission is the last thing to look at. It is driven solely by pressurized hydraulic fluid, and that pressure comes from its pump when the engine is running. There's no pressure built up when you're cranking the engine because it's rotating too slowly. That means it isn't doing anything and it isn't putting any load on the engine. Also, the fluid level is to be checked when the engine is running and the fluid is being pumped around it and fills all the many passages. It had better read over-full when the engine is not running. You likely have it three quarts too low now that you drained that much out.

It sounds to me like you have potentially three different problems. The first is the slow cranking speed. Start by measuring the battery voltage. If it is fully charged it will read 12.6 volts. If you find closer to 12.2 volts it's okay but discharged. It will crank slowly unless you charge it at a slow rate for about an hour.

Next, measure the voltage between the large terminal on the starter and the engine block. You'll find full battery voltage there but what's of interest is what that voltage drops to when a helper cranks the engine. It must not drop lower than 9.6 volts. If it does it will usually be a lot lower than 9.6 volts and that means we have to locate a loose or dirty connection. Those are usually right at the battery. (More on this later).

Incorrect valve timing can cause slow cranking too so you may need to double-check your new timing chains.

For the no-start the first thing is to read the diagnostic fault codes but if you disconnected the battery during any of the other service work, the codes were erased and that valuable information was lost. You'll have to move on to the next step which is determining if the automatic shutdown (ASD) relay is turning on. The easiest way to do that is to measure the voltage at any ignition coil or any injector. The wire you're after will be the same color at all those places. It's usually dark green / orange. You will find 12 volts there for one second after turning on the ignition switch, then it will go back to 0 volts. Most digital meters don't respond fast enough to catch that so you either have to watch very closely or use a test light. What's important is if that voltage comes back during cranking. If it does, you have either a spark, or a fuel supply problem. Fuel would be more likely as in a failed fuel pump. Banging on the tank while a helper cranks the engine often gets them going again. You should be able to hear it hum for that one second when you turn on the ignition switch.

If that voltage doesn't come back during cranking but it was there for that one second, you have a problem with the crankshaft position sensor or the camshaft position sensor. The signals from them are what tells the Engine Computer the engine is rotating and it's time to turn the ASD relay on.

If you do get the engine started I would do an oil pressure test with a mechanical gauge right away. Chrysler built a lot of really tough engines over the years, but the 2.7L isn't one of them. If the oil pressure is low, it has worn bearings and it's going to get worse, then spin a rod bearing. The previous owner may have seized the engine from lack of oil pressure, and that could also be the reason for the slow cranking. Lack of oil sprayed onto the cylinder walls will cause the pistons to drag. You can verify that by measuring the starter current draw. Normal is around 100 amps. With a tight engine that current will go up a lot, perhaps over 200 amps or more.

That 9.6 volts I mentioned earlier pertains to an engine in good condition. If there is an oiling problem and the pistons are dragging, starter current flow will go up, but the voltage will get dragged down. In that case voltage lower than 9.6 volts can be misleading. The clue here would be that you find nearly the same low voltage at the starter AND right at the battery, (meaning the cables and connections aren't the cause of slow cranking), and the cranking speed doesn't improve much when you have a battery charger connected. The battery charger will only overcome the slow cranking if the battery is weak or discharged. If the battery is strong, there isn't anything for the charger to do so it won't have much affect on cranking speed.
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Friday, September 13th, 2013 AT 11:32 PM
Tiny
MRHARRIE
  • MEMBER
The fluid level on the transmission dipstick was well too high. There was also quite a bit of metal flakes in the transmission fluid that I removed. I will check your suggestions. Thank you.
William or MrHarrie
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Saturday, September 14th, 2013 AT 8:00 AM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • EXPERT
The metal flakes are a legitimate concern but I wouldn't pay any attention to the fluid level yet. If the transmission had been seriously overfilled there would have been slipping and shifting problems. The fluid will be hit by rotating drums and that will whip air into it. That air will compress leading to clutch packs that won't lock up solidly. The slippage would be detected by the Transmission Computer and it would default to "limp" mode which is second gear.

If I'm right, you'll find the fluid level is too low once you get the engine running. If it WAS over-filled before it couldn't have been bad enough or the previous owner would have noticed a problem.

Let me know how you're coming with the running problem.
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Saturday, September 14th, 2013 AT 11:20 AM
Tiny
MRHARRIE
  • MEMBER
I checked the battery terminals and cleaned them. I am not getting any error codes, but numbers 06, 11, 13, 20, 31 and 28 on my CAR MD. Thank you for your time. CarMD has discovered the following condition with your vehicle's Anti-lock Braking System.
Retrieved Diagnostic Code: 11
Technical Definition: No distributor, camshaft or crankshaft reference signal detected during cranking (Cars 1983-97) (Trucks/Vans 1987-97) (Jeeps 1993-97)
Areas to Inspect - Possible Causes: Open or shorted wiring Dirty or loose connectors Improper voltages or grounds Defective sensor Mechanical problems in camshaft and/or crankshaft Defective distributor (if equipped) Defective computer
Additional Resources
In some instances your vehicle's manufacturer may issue a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) to address this problem. (?)
Issued TSB? TSB Not Available
Retrieved Diagnostic Code: 13
Technical Definition: No change or small change in (MAP) Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor readings between the periods of key-on engine off (atmospheric pressure) and key-on engine running (low pressure) (Cars 1983-97) (Trucks/Vans 1988-97)
Areas to Inspect - Possible Causes: Restrictions or leaks in vacuum hose or ports in the MAP sensor circuit Dirty or loose connectors Improper voltage or ground Defective MAP sensor Defective computer
Additional Resources
In some instances your vehicle's manufacturer may issue a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) to address this problem. (?)
Issued TSB? TSB Not Available

CarMD has discovered the following condition with your vehicle's Safety Restraint System.
Retrieved Diagnostic Code: 20
Technical Definition: Coming soon
Additional Resources
In some instances your vehicle's manufacturer may issue a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) to address this problem. (?)
Issued TSB? TSB Not Available
Retrieved Diagnostic Code: 31
Technical Definition: Evaporative monitor leak or obstruction detected (Cars/Trucks/Vans/Jeeps 1996-97)
Areas to Inspect - Possible Causes: Open or shorted wiring Dirty or loose connectors Improper voltages or grounds Defective purge solenoid Defective computer
Additional Resources
In some instances your vehicle's manufacturer may issue a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) to address this problem. (?)
Issued TSB? TSB Not Available
Retrieved Diagnostic Code: 28
Technical Definition: Coming soon
Additional Resources
In some instances your vehicle's manufacturer may issue a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) to address this problem. (?)
Issued TSB? TSB Not Available
Retrieved Diagnostic Code: 06
Technical Definition: Coming soon
Additional Resources
In some instances your vehicle's manufacturer may issue a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) to address this problem. (?)
Issued TSB? TSB Not Available

Thank you for your time.
William
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Saturday, September 14th, 2013 AT 2:23 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • EXPERT
Did your Car MD come up with those code numbers? I've seen the commercials for it and it looks interesting. What I'm confused about is that '96 and newer vehicles sold in the U.S. Use three-digit engine codes. I use Chrysler's DRB3 scanner and that only displays the code descriptions; no numbers. I recognize some of the code numbers you listed but those are for '95 and older models.

If you cleaned the battery terminals the fault codes would have been erased. If these came back after that, start with the one related to the camshaft position sensor and crankshaft position sensor. That can explain the no-start condition.

If you still have a slow crank problem, that could explain the map sensor code. The engine may be not going fast enough to develop manifold vacuum. Also, the cause of that code won't cause a failure to start. When that code is set, the computer knows it can't rely on those readings so it will ignore the sensor and inject approximate values to run on based on calculations from other sensors and operating conditions. It usually will not run well, but it will run.

The evaporative emissions code, ... In fact, the entire system is unrelated to engine performance. Don't worry about that one for now.
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Sunday, September 15th, 2013 AT 12:09 AM
Tiny
MRHARRIE
  • MEMBER
I ordered a camshaft and crankshaft sensor from Ebay last night. I should receive it by Thursday or Friday. I will keep you informed. Have a great week. Thank you for your attention.
William
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Sunday, September 15th, 2013 AT 7:02 AM
Tiny
MRHARRIE
  • MEMBER
I took it to an auto shop. They told me the intake valves are bent. Thank you for your time.
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Saturday, July 11th, 2015 AT 3:39 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • EXPERT
I'm pretty sure this isn't an interference engine, so how do they explain the valves getting bent?
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Sunday, July 12th, 2015 AT 12:29 AM
Tiny
MRHARRIE
  • MEMBER
Me when the timing chain broke, the owner tried to start it some more. I took it to an auto mechanics shop. They diagnosed it.
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Sunday, July 12th, 2015 AT 7:57 AM

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