As soon as I start it, pedal goes to the floor

Tiny
SKEETON
  • MEMBER
  • 1989 GMC SIERRA
  • 5.7L
  • V8
  • 2WD
  • MANUAL
  • 154,000 MILES
I have the truck listed above 1500. I have replaced the booster due to sucking air. Both front calipers are new, pads and rotors also. Bleed the entire system including dump valve as per countless websites. I get good pedal while the truck is off, as soon as I start it, pedal goes to the floor. When test driven, it actually starts to grab around where it should, but no pedal pressure at all. I am saying I can feel the calipers start grabbing where they should, but it is like there is no pressure to the brake system. The strange thing is when I slam on the brakes, I get the pedal feel that I want. If I ease the pedal, it goes to the floor. Both ways does stop the truck. If any advice is available, please help.
Saturday, March 3rd, 2018 AT 5:20 PM

12 Replies

Tiny
HARRY P
  • MECHANIC
  • 2,292 POSTS
I would bet on a bad master cylinder myself. The seals on the piston are allowing a certain amount of fluid to blow by them, causing the pedal to go to the floor. Since they do hold some pressure, the calipers do get engaged and squeeze the pads to the rotors. I would also change the brake fluid, as old brake fluid gets a little thinned out and allows the pedal to go closer to the floor (because it compresses a little when under pressure).
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Wednesday, April 14th, 2021 AT 1:40 PM
Tiny
SKEETON
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The only thing that I have an issue with on this response is, as long as the truck is off, the pedal is stiff with no leak-down. If the master was bad, I think that it would leak-down while the truck is off and me pushing the pedal. I am six foot two inches and about three hundred pounds. I can put some pressure on a brake pedal. As long as the truck is off, I get pedal pressure, but as soon as I crank it, pedal goes to the floor. I am thinking that there is an issue with the dump valve. Any thoughts?
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Wednesday, April 14th, 2021 AT 1:40 PM
Tiny
HARRY P
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  • 2,292 POSTS
Pedal is stiff because there is no assistance coming from the brake booster. All that the dump valve does is redistribute pressure to the rear brakes. So a failure of that valve really would not affect pedal pressure. The only other thing that I can think of is your ABS module, if your truck has ABS to begin with. Most of those trucks in 1989 did not have it, but apparently it was an option, according to ProDemand. In this case, there are valves controlling pedal pressure and brake pressure. A failure there could cause loss of pedal pressure. Plus your ABS light would likely be coming on, as the module would detect an internal problem and set a fitting code.

I really think your problem is in your master cylinder though.
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Wednesday, April 14th, 2021 AT 1:40 PM
Tiny
SKEETON
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First, I just really want to thank you for taking the time to help me. The truck does have ABS, but I have no lights on the dash because I believe the bulbs are blown. I took the truck out yesterday, and locked the brakes up. The front locked up, nothing from the rear. I did not get the common abs pedal pulse either. When I did lock it up, I have a slight difference in the front lock up. It was about a two foot difference. The driver side locked up first then the passenger. That was from fifty mph, just slammed on the pedal, which actually had pressure, but no pulse. Before you ask, yea I flat spotted my tires, but I am going to figure this out. Lol. I actually have another truck also, only difference is it is a Chevrolet with an automatic and a 305. The master on it acts the same as the GMC. When I put the booster in, I adjusted the pedal switch all the way out because my lights were staying on. The switch had an adjustment slide and I just slid it all the way out. Do you think that might have something to do with it? I will take the module off the other truck and see if that has any effect or not.
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Wednesday, April 14th, 2021 AT 1:40 PM
Tiny
SKEETON
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  • 7 POSTS
Also worth mentioning, I bleed the brakes while the truck is not running, I get perfect pressure. I cracked the rear once while it was running, and the fluid dribbled out of the bleeder. Of course I re-bled the truck after that, but I do not understand that either. When I re-bled the truck, I got perfect pressure again.
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Wednesday, April 14th, 2021 AT 1:40 PM
Tiny
HARRY P
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Try switching that ABS module. No pulse from the pedal when you locked it up is something of a give away. Especially if the light is burnt out. If the light is good, it will come on for a second or two when you turn the key on, and then go back off. Obviously, if the bulb is blown, it will not come on at all.

And you are welcome. I do what I can to help out because we all understand that sometimes you just cannot take it to a shop.
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Wednesday, April 14th, 2021 AT 1:40 PM
Tiny
SKEETON
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I am going do that today. I am not a certified mechanic, but I definitely know what I am doing. I have never had this much trouble with brakes. Of course I cut my teeth on the old non computer controlled cars, but now I know my way around some more sophisticated cars. Matter of fact I have got two Cadillac's that I have done a lot of work on. I rebuilt the engine and transmission harness on one of them. I know how to use the self diagnosis and other features on both. One is an obd1, and the other is an obd2. Just trying to say, I am definitely not ignorant when it comes to cars. I definitely fall into that category of not being able to take it to a shop, and that is why I know what I know. There has definitely been a lot of trial and error that my experience comes from. I have just never had this much of an issue with brakes. But not having my truck up to par with the warning lights and everything is probably playing in a big way with my problem. Lol.
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Wednesday, April 14th, 2021 AT 1:40 PM
Tiny
HARRY P
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You and I are cut from the same cloth. I know what I know because I refuse to take my car to someone else and pay them to do something I can do. But yeah, I would suspect a problem either with that ABS module or the master cylinder. It pretty much has to be one of them.
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Wednesday, April 14th, 2021 AT 1:40 PM
Tiny
SKEETON
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I am going try the module first. I have the master cylinder on hand too. I am just trying everything else before I actually change it. I am just not totally convinced yet that it is my problem. I do not want to change it if I do not have to, but I do have it. Honestly it is just trying find a friend with a vice so I can bench bleed it is why I have not changed it. And then my thought process kicked in, and knowing a little about hydraulics I just do not get why the pedal does not leak while the truck is off. The pedal holds good pressure while it is off. As soon as it is started, it goes to the floor. I have even rolled the truck and stopped it with it off with good pressure. Just as soon as you start it though, it drops. Let me try a few more things and I will get back to you though.
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Wednesday, April 14th, 2021 AT 1:40 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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Hi guys. Allow me to add a few observations that may or may not be relevant.

1. If you have rear-wheel ABS, which would have been typical for an '89 model, the dump valve doesn't always pulse like the valves do in a four-wheel ABS modulator assembly. If the system fails in any way, the block valve just won't apply, and the entire hydraulic system will be identical to that on a truck without the system. Bleeding won't be affected by the dump valve being there.

2. I noticed the comment about the brake light switch. If that is adjusted down too far, it can hold the brake pedal from returning fully. That will prevent the pistons in the master cylinder from coming back far enough to expose the replenishing ports that allow brake fluid to fill in, in front of the lip seals. Normally the symptom will be the warming and expanding brake fluid can't return into the reservoir, and since it's trapped, it causes the brakes to apply harder and harder as you drive. If there's still air in the system, that can prevent the brakes from self-applying as the brake fluid heats up, but it will cause the low brake pedal. When you try to bleed again, if you resort to pedal-bleeding with a helper, which I don't recommend, you'll never get a new bite of fluid when the brake pedal is returned, then pushed again. You'll just move the fluid back and forth as the pedal is moved. If you do gravity-bleeding, which is all I do, gravity won't be strong enough to pull the brake fluid past the lip seals in the master cylinder.

3. I didn't see any mention of checking the rear drum brakes for proper adjustment. If the shoes have to move real far to contact the drum, you'll have a low pedal, but that is misleading only on GM vehicles because without power assist, it can take three men and a boy to push the brake pedal. That falsely gives the impression the pedal feels normal with the engine off.

4. The biggest thing that is often overlooked is trucks and minivans have a wide range of loading variables from empty to fully-loaded. The stopping power of the rear brakes has to adjust for that. Too little rear braking force puts all the load on the front brakes with the rears doing nothing. Too much rear braking force causes easy rear-wheel lockup, which, by the way, was the reason for developing rear-wheel ABS systems which are only found on trucks. To address this wide range of loading, most trucks and minivans use a rear height-sensing proportioning valve. There's a real good chance you have the truck on a hoist or jacked up in such a way that the rear axle is hanging down. That makes it look to the height-sensing proportioning valve as though the truck is lightly loaded and very little braking power should go to the rear brakes. With little fluid flow during bleeding, air will get stalled at a high spot rather than get pushed out to the bleeder screws. You might get fresh, clean fluid coming out of the bleeder screws, but it's dribbling past the air that's stuck in the system. To address this, run the truck onto a drive-on hoist or put the jack stands under the axle housing, then let the truck down so the axle goes up.

Use these wondrous suggestions as some things to consider. If these don't apply, I'll go back and sit in my corner.
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Wednesday, April 14th, 2021 AT 1:40 PM
Tiny
SKEETON
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A little more info that comes in with those comments. The back brakes are adjusted, I actually readjusted them yesterday. When inspecting them, I found that the left rear, drivers side, the pin that holds the parking brake and the brake shoe together had fallen out, and the adjuster had fallen out of place also. When this was repaired, I got enough pedal pressure, to where it doesn't feel unsafe to drive. It still doesn't have the pedal pressure that I would like, or for me to turn the truck loose to someone else to drive, but enough for me to drive it. It's funny that car radio doc said that it would take 3 men and a boy to push the pedal, because I've been driving the truck for about 4 months with a bad booster. Plus one of my first trucks, which I still have, is a 1976 ford f100 4wd hi boy with factory manual steering. I run 33 12.50's on the truck also. I'm probably the only person that can drive that truck. Not to mention that it has a bent drag link that rubs and catches on the front axle. I've also been known to be able to drive semi trucks with out power steering. Back to the subject, the most interesting thing that car radio doc said was about the stance of the truck. My truck does have a different stance than normal. It's lowered in the front I think around 4-5 inches and in the rear about 4 inches. I think it has 2 inch spidles, and 2 or 3 inch springs in the front, then it's c channeled in the back for an axle flip but the axle is not flipped. It just has drop shackles. At one time it had air ride. All that said, there is not a way for me to get the rear axle to be as level with the truck as it should be. It has a permanent hot rod stance. There is about a 3 inch difference in the height from front to back. So the stance might be my issue. The switch had to be adjusted all the way out so the brake lights would go off. The way I adjusted it wouldn't hold the pedal from traveling the whole way out. The switch just mounts to a stationary spot with a slider bar adjustment built in the switch itself. I don't see how the switch could affect travel of the pedal. I brought it up thinking that it might be affecting the abs features since this truck don't have wheel speed sensors. Speed is measured at the transmission. My thought process brought me to the pedal switch with the speed sensor as controls for the abs. If the proportion/combination valve is the issue due to gravity and tilt, should I try to put some kind of spacer or bushing on the mount that's mounted to the master cylinder to get a better angle? And what are yall's thoughts with the info that I gave? I apologize for not mentioning it before, but I really didn't think that it was an issue.
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Wednesday, April 14th, 2021 AT 1:40 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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  • 33,763 POSTS
The angle of the frame isn't the issue. It's less-complicated than that. The concern is simply the rear suspension's ride height, but I'm pretty sure the height-sensing proportioning valve would have been addressed when ride height was modified. That simply means readjusting the link between the valve and the axle. If that hadn't been done, it would always look to that valve like there was so much weight in the box as to force the rear to go down 4". That would require a lot more braking power to go to the rear brakes, and since you don't actually have that weight in the back, that would cause easy rear-wheel lockup. The ABS dump valve would kick in at just about every stop. The typical symptom would be the brake pedal sinks slowly to the floor on all but the lightest pedal applications. Assuming the valve was readjusted a long time ago and has been working properly, my comment about it wasn't related to the modified frame angle. It applies to any truck or minivan having the brakes bled while the vehicle is on a hoist and the axle is hanging down.

The only thing the higher frame angle MIGHT get you is the engineers at GM, for some reason, mounted a lot of their truck master cylinders at a wild angle that allowed air to become trapped in the fronts of the bores. That could only be bled out at the wheels or by loosening the steel lines at the master cylinder, then bleeding there with a helper. Your higher frame angle could possibly allow that trapped air to wash back into the reservoir like it does on all other vehicles when the brake pedal is released.
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Wednesday, April 14th, 2021 AT 1:40 PM

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