Are two of the A/C relay terminals supposed to be hot when car is in off position, or one terminal hot (battery voltage) and one cold?

Tiny
NJMCLAIN
  • MEMBER
  • 23 POSTS
Thanks, Steve. I'll test the ECM.
I've attached the terminal assignments for the AC Control Module

A few items I'm noticing after previous tests:

1. Interior Temp Sensor power supply shows 3.5v (should be approx. 5v) - (B282) 5 to 15
2. Evap Sensor power supply shows 3.5v (should be approx. 5v) - (B282) 13 to 15

*Could this be an issue?
**Is it worth looking at the (i3/B38) 11 connector for a short?

Versus:
3. Mode Door and Air Mix actuators showing 5v (B282) 8 to 15

4. Mode Door actuator power supply cuts out: 10v down to 0.5v
(B283) 7 to Chassis GND & (B283) 17 to Chassis GND
5. Air Mix actuators power supply cuts out: 10v down to 0.5v
(B283) 8 to Chassis GND & (B283) 18 to Chassis GND - Passenger Side
(B283) 9 to Chassis GND & (B283) 19 to Chassis GND - Driver's Side
*Is this normal operation?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 AT 6:47 AM
Tiny
NJMCLAIN
  • MEMBER
  • 23 POSTS
Think it's figured out. I should have started with these tests. But lesson learned.

ECM:
A/C On Switch [from the AC Control Module] (B137) 17 - normal operation
A/C Relay Control (B135) 33 - normal operation

*A/C Middle Pressure Switch (B137) 30 - battery power when A/C is on, and off (should cut to 0v).
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 AT 12:31 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,152 POSTS
The actuators are somewhat a unique item. They use a pulsed signal back to the control head. Basically, an optical encoder that recalibrates at every start. So, 3.5 on the power to them is okay. They also won't stop the system from working. The 12 volts is a polarity reversal drive, it also will change voltage somewhat depending on actuator position and as soon as an actuator hits a travel stop the current spike causes the control head to cut power, until either the key on reset or you request a change in the door position.

The pressure switch only changes if the compressor activates. Basically, key on engine off with a charge in the system the low side turns on, then you turn on the A/C and the compressor starts, and the middle switch cycles the compressor on and off based on the system pressures, if the system pressure gets too high the high-pressure switch cuts power to the compressor. In yours those switches are all one transducer. The thing is that way back you said that if you jumped the relay the system would start and cool. That would mean that at least the low side is working. Based on all your current testing the issue is either in the control head or the ECM. The signal to the relay just isn't getting there.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 AT 3:45 PM
Tiny
NJMCLAIN
  • MEMBER
  • 23 POSTS
One Correction from previous post on ECM.

ECM Terminals:
A/C On connector terminal (B137) 17 [from the A/C Control Module (B283) 6] - normal operation
*A/C Relay Control (B135) 33 - Battery voltage is present when A/C Power Switch is off (good), and when it is on (bad)
A/C Middle Pressure Switch (B137) 30 - Battery voltage is present when A/C Power Switch is off (good), and when it is on (bad)

When the A/C is switched on from the Control Panel/Head Unit, via the A/C Control Module, both ECM terminals [(B135) 33 and (B137) 30] should cut to 0v, they do not.

If the A/C power signal coming from the Control Panel to the A/C Control Module (B283) 6, to ECM (B137) 17 [battery voltage when ac is on, zero voltage when it is turned off] is functioning normally, would that mean the issue is not in the AC Control Module (or anything preceding the signal from (B283) 6? Isolating the problem to the ECM?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 AT 3:58 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,152 POSTS
That would be the control side of the relay which should get pulled to ground to activate the A/C, as you tested earlier it doesn't switch. Your other testing shows that the remainder of the system seems to function. So, an easy test, connect a meter to the medium pressure switch and jump pin 33 to ground. Does the A/C work? Does the pressure signals change as it builds pressure? If the pressure signals operate properly then you know that it's the driver in the ECM that is bad.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 AT 6:02 PM
Tiny
NJMCLAIN
  • MEMBER
  • 23 POSTS
Please correct me where I'm misinterpreting:

Step 1: Back probe (B135) 33 and jump to Chassis GND.
Step 2: Unplug pressure sensor connector and use the multimeter to test continuity across (B10) 3 and 4?
Step 3: Plug in the Pressure Sensor and test the A/C operation with a manifold gauge?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, May 11th, 2023 AT 4:24 AM
Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,152 POSTS
Step one- correct. Step 2 would be to simply observe the system, if you can back probe the pins on the pressure switch you can verify its operation as well. If it functions and the A/C is cold you already eliminated other areas and have narrowed it into the ECM. You could test with a gauge but simply measuring the temperature drop at the center vent on high would work.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, May 11th, 2023 AT 4:35 PM
Tiny
NJMCLAIN
  • MEMBER
  • 23 POSTS
Much appreciated, Steve.

Even though it's a brand-new compressor in the car, I decided to run the Lock Sensor diagnostic flow today. Got some puzzling (to me) results in Step 7 (attached pics). Anything to dig into here?

I found two loose terminal blades (F37) 16 and (B143) 14 in my Main Fuse Box (they appear to be physically connected/one unit) - pushing one blade will directly move the other (the blades are inline across two connectors).

In Step 7 of the attached A/C Lock Sensor diagnostic flow I measured the resistance between two sets of terminal blades as well as the corresponding connector terminals on the fuse box and kept getting O.L. For everything.

1. Are the loose terminal blades a factor in not getting a continuity reading?
2. If yes, are they affecting the signal to/from the A/C Lock Sensor?
3. Is the O.L reading in Step 7 related to the ECM?
4. In the attached A/Csystem wiring diagram the fuse box terminal [from the Lock Sensor] (B143) 14 connects to the ECM via (B135) 23 which looks to be the Camshaft Position Sensor GND - anything here? - I'm guessing that the lock sensor is syncing with the camshaft position sensor.
5. Could the Camshaft Position Sensor(s) be affecting the A/C system via the Lock Sensor?

Thank you!
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, May 11th, 2023 AT 8:10 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,152 POSTS
It is not uncommon to find mated contacts. If you look at the various wiring diagrams you can see many instances where they use terminals like that simply as connection points without them connecting to power or ground inside the block, they are in. That is because they tend to reuse things like fuse blocks and harnesses, plus when your car was built the harness will have all the wires in it for all options that were available. Saves money by having just a single harness and saves errors on the line.
As long as there is continuity between the adjacent terminals it is okay.
I wouldn't worry much about the lock sensor though; its only job is to look at the compressor speed and the engine speed and make sure they match when the compressor engages. Yours doesn't engage and you are not seeing a code for an rpm mismatch so it's not an issue. It uses the RPM signal from the ignition module.
No on the cam sensor causing the A/C to not work. The lock sensor does nothing until the compressor engages.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, May 11th, 2023 AT 9:17 PM
Tiny
NJMCLAIN
  • MEMBER
  • 23 POSTS
Thank you for all the teaching on this.

With ECM AC Relay Control (B135) 33 jumped to Chassis GND, the AC Compressor fires up and blows cold.

Should I order an ECM and get it programmed?

*After some conversations with a local mechanic and another friend, it appears that if you added an iPod 1/8in jack kit to the stereo (which I did back in the day - Jazzy Engineering), it can affect the ECM negatively. I also added a cheap Bluetooth extender to the hack. Maybe this caused the ECM issue?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Friday, May 12th, 2023 AT 10:28 AM
Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,152 POSTS
I've seen multiple issues caused by add-ons, to the point that if a vehicle shows up with say a remote start on it, I've been known to remove the entire thing and then start the repairs (in the event that the removal wasn't the repair!)
I would probably grab a used one and program it. That would be after I stuck a scan tool on it and verified that I couldn't control the AC through the system.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Friday, May 12th, 2023 AT 2:45 PM
Tiny
NJMCLAIN
  • MEMBER
  • 23 POSTS
Thanks again, Steve.

I swapped in and tested a functioning head unit I pulled from the savage yard and two other AC Control Modules all to no avail.

I'm going all in on broken ECM.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Friday, May 12th, 2023 AT 7:53 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,152 POSTS
Keep us informed please.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Friday, May 12th, 2023 AT 8:22 PM
Tiny
NJMCLAIN
  • MEMBER
  • 23 POSTS
Will do.

If I were to put a scan tool on the car (before swapping the ECM), what would I be looking for exactly?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Sunday, May 14th, 2023 AT 7:38 AM
Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,152 POSTS
Well, with it you can watch as the A/C is turned on and off as to what the ECM and control head is doing. It should also show the switch changes as to the low/mid/high pressure line switch, clutch activation and more depending on the scan tool. So, say you turn the AC on, the control head data shows the AC commanded on and what pressures are shown, plus if the ECM is receiving the on signal and its response to that command. So, if it shows that all of the system is on and the ECM shows ON but there is no control signal to the relay, the ECM is the problem. Or if you turn it on and there is no status change from the control head, it is the likely problem.
However, you need to be careful in terms of the make of tool due to the coverage.
This is a neat video on some of them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHctRaX68Pw Note the prices!!! Topdon also has a wide range of tools at different prices.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Sunday, May 14th, 2023 AT 11:01 AM
Tiny
NJMCLAIN
  • MEMBER
  • 23 POSTS
Hi Steven,

Bought a new ECM from Subaru.
Got it flashed today, put it in at the dealer, and AC worked as I began to drive home.
Big smiles.
Then AC quit 10 mins into the drive.
Got home a bit frustrated.
Ended up noticing a bunch of corrosion on the battery ground lead and terminal.
Cleaned both thoroughly.
AC now works.

Was it the corroded ground lead the entire time? Or just a needed reset (battery disconnect) on the new ECM?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, May 24th, 2023 AT 2:14 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,152 POSTS
I would say it was both. The corroded ground would have made the ECU search for other places to ground and would have increased the draw through the various driver transistors. One thermally overloaded from the draw, and you went and found the bad ground. That would restore the proper ground current capacity and reset the thermal shutoff. So now things work.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, May 24th, 2023 AT 8:45 PM
Tiny
NJMCLAIN
  • MEMBER
  • 23 POSTS
It's been an education.

Thank you for your time and attention.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, May 25th, 2023 AT 4:37 AM
Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,152 POSTS
No problem, Return anytime with your questions. Thank you for being someone who actually tests and gives us info. So much nicer than the "My car makes this noise, what is it?" With no description or video of the issue. You seem like you might be good at this stuff, if you want to learn a lot more about testing and diag I'd suggest scannerdanner and pine hollow auto both on you tube. Paul Danners book is also a great tool to have.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, May 25th, 2023 AT 1:43 PM

Please login or register to post a reply.

Sponsored links