2002 Suzuki Esteem MAF or something else

Tiny
CANBYTE
  • MEMBER
  • 2002 SUZUKI ESTEEM
  • 4 CYL
  • FWD
  • MANUAL
  • 130,000 MILES
Suzi bogs down when I accelerate hard or go uphill. Loud boggy/ hollow sound from front end. Dealer wants to replace maf AND throttle body for $1000. Ripoff! I cleaned the maf (no improvement, was clean). Disconnecting maf makes performance much worse - so it must be working? Engine light is not on. Seems worse below freezing (i opened hole in air filter box to use warmer compartment air - maybe a little better). Changed IAT sensor. After stopping for 1/2 hr or more, runs perfect for about 1 minute which in my mind rules out fuel, egr, spark problems etc? Dealer ran car with exhaust removed - no improvement.
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Saturday, January 17th, 2009 AT 3:36 PM

11 Replies

Tiny
KHLOW2008
  • EXPERT
Hi canbyte,

Thank you for the donation.

Is your vehicle 1.6 or 1.8 L?

When engine runs well for a short period, it is possible electrical components are failing when heated up.

Did you check the ignition timing?
Was anything done prior to this happening?
Did you check the fuel system? Pressure etc.
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Monday, January 19th, 2009 AT 7:21 AM
Tiny
CANBYTE
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Hi KH, thanks for responding. Esteem is 1.8, wagon, o2. My original post said 130000 miles - should have said its kms.

Its been in 2 garages so far, i'm reasonably (but not absolutely) sure fuel pressure, timing got checked. Good acceleration (even when cold) should point away from fuel? Nothing done prior to problem developing except weather getting colder which seemed to make things worse. Your suggestion about electrical part failing when hot makes sense but what part - the maf would presumably be isolated from any heat other than the warmish air in the engine compartment (room temp?) Dunno where to go from here. Should probably get a scanner but that's another project! I've located a used maf but includes the throttle body. Can't I just change the maf only (2 minute job)? But if no improvement, then what? No way to tell if the used maf is bad.

Your point about the timing though could be worth thinking about -- too bad theres no wires to put my old timing light on. I remember there were vacuum advances on the old carbs but dunno if there is anything similar here.

I'm sure they did a scanner check but what has not been done and nobody seems willing, is to run the scanner while driving. I guess it takes 2 mechanics to do this.

Hmmm. Frustrating problem!
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Monday, January 19th, 2009 AT 2:09 PM
Tiny
KHLOW2008
  • EXPERT
Hi canbyte,

Ignition coils, fuel pump and heat related sensors can and do give way when heated up.

One thing that just came to mind is the charging rate. If the alternator is not producing sufficient charge, the engine would bog down. I have seen cases of charging rate dropping drastically after running for a few minutes due to a bad crankshaft pulley. Get a voltmeter to test the charging rate.

The ignition timing is adjustable for 1.8L and if you have a timing light, try hooking it over the wire connectors to the ignition coil, some timing light works this way.

However you need to connect jumper wire between test switch connector terminals "D" and "E".


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/192750_DLC02Esteem_1.jpg



EFI of the newer versions do not have any vacumn advances, they are ECM controlled.

You are right about the dignostic scanner needing 2 people to have on road test but if they can't find the problem, that is what they should be doing. If a shop is not willing to go and try to find the cause of a problem, how can they improve on experience?

Let me know what you find out and about the alternator and ignition timing and we will continue from there.
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Monday, January 19th, 2009 AT 3:53 PM
Tiny
CANBYTE
  • MEMBER
Hi I finally got a new (used) maf but no improvement except no pending codes have come back. I got a scanner - here are results Hope the format is readable.

Light acceleration_______Heavy acceleration
RPM MAF TPS throtttle
Idle .36 to.39 lb/min .3%TPS
1500 0.7 3.9% __________ approx 6
1750 1.4 10%
2200 2.5 25.7%
2500 2.9 20.3%
2500 2.2 15%
3000 3.3 24% ___________ approx 4?
3000 3.1 21%

Sensor Idle ____________ Fast idle
RPM 750 ____________1500
o2S12 v=.06 to.16______ v=.14 to.8
O2S11 .13.82 % -1.5 to +1.5__.5 to.89
TPS .3% _______________ 3.9%
MAF .36 to.39 __________.691
Ign Advance 7 to 9 ________ 29
IAT 73 ____________ 104 deg F
LT FTRM1% # -6 to -10.1_____-1.5 to -2.3
ST FTRM1% # 0 TO.7_______ -8.6
cOOLANT 199 ______________ 199

Diagnosing problem - conflicting evidence
Tried to line up columns with underliners

POSSIBLE CAUSE ______ NO__________ YES________________ NEXT STEP

MAF ________________ REPLACED__COLD EFFECT ______ TAP TEST
____________________ HIGH READINGS
_____________________NO CODE

PLUGGED CATALYTIC____DISCONNECTED___SOUND ___TEST - O2 SENSR OUT
___________________ NO IMPROVEMENT

FUEL PUMP/ FILTER____OK FIRST MINUTE__? ____________ FUEL TEST - MAX
_______________________TESTED?

COMPUTER _____________DRIVES____ ERRATIC? O2 __TERMINAL VOLTAGE TEST

EGU, PCV __________________________________________ INSPECT / CLEAN

VACUUM LEAKS ________NOT VISIBLE
_________________________TESTED

THROTTLE BODY ____________________________________ REPLACE?

Other than trying to reinspect & do a voltage test
all I can think to do now is to assess exhaust backpressure. Local shops have no parts for this car & i'm hesitant to try a muffler shop. I've put the alternator idea aside till I get a voltmeter but the belt sometimes squeals for a minute in the warmer weather (too cold now). I'm assuming from the data, its not a timing problem. Is it normal for the O2 and FTRMs to bounce around a lot?

Sure is a frustrating problem, hope you have some ideas. Thanks.
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Friday, February 6th, 2009 AT 9:57 AM
Tiny
KHLOW2008
  • EXPERT
Hi canbyte,

The results don't show any noticeable abnormalities and it is usual for the FTRMS and timing and to fluctuate slightly but too much shows some instability.

For the ignition timing, the specs should be 4 to 6 degrees with jumper installed between terminals "D" and "E" of test conneector.
With scanner it should be set to Fixed Spark Mode.

As a matter of fact you should test the charging voltage. Belt noise could mean slipping belts which can affect the the charging rate and engine performance. If the crank pulley is equipped with harmonic balancer, check if it is faulty resulting in outer ring slipping causing drop in voltage and squeaking noise.
Check if the alternator belt tension is correct.
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Friday, February 6th, 2009 AT 4:10 PM
Tiny
CANBYTE
  • MEMBER
Hi KHL
Well, problem finally resolved. After another rec to get fuel checked, I found a more experienced mechanic who, on listening to boggy sound on test drive, became convinced the cat was plugged. Muffler shop confirmed this, changed it and presto, noise gone, performance back!

As to why the cat failed, hopefully, changing the maf explains it. I'll get to that belt too asap. Thanks for your help, good to know you're around.

Cheers
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Friday, February 6th, 2009 AT 5:14 PM
Tiny
KHLOW2008
  • EXPERT
Glad to know you have resolved your problem.

We at 2carpros will always be around to assist in whatever way we can.

Anytime you got a question, just drop by and any of our technicians would be around to help. However the number of questions are phenomenal and we are having difficulty coping at times so there might be some delay when answering.

Have a nice day.
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Saturday, February 7th, 2009 AT 6:24 AM
Tiny
SCRUG
  • MEMBER
I got the same problem on my 1999 but you said '' Dealer ran car with exhaust removed - no improvement '' and at the end you said '' became convinced the cat was plugged. Muffler shop confirmed this, changed it and presto, noise gone, performance back! '' If you remove the exaust, the performance sould came back. For me the manifold came red hot and the performance was weak ''no power'' ive disconnect the IAT and came back to noramle. Ive been on road test directly after disconnect it and was going fine ''good power. Then 15 min later it was going like if I had flat spot on the TPS.
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Saturday, August 1st, 2009 AT 4:56 PM
Tiny
KHLOW2008
  • EXPERT
Hi scrug,

When a bad misfiring is occuring and excessive fuel is getting to catalytic converter, it becomes red hot.

You should check what is causing the misfiring. Was a scan done to try to retrieve trouble codes?
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Saturday, August 1st, 2009 AT 5:25 PM
Tiny
SCRUG
  • MEMBER
I was about to do a scan to see whats wrong with this. The cat dosen't came red hot but the manifold do. Unplug the iat came back to normal then 15 min later push the gas pedal down '' good power'' but something looks like flat spot happen just like if I realease the gas pedal. Wasent sound like a missfire. (After disconect the iat the manifold wasent red )
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Saturday, August 1st, 2009 AT 5:37 PM
Tiny
KHLOW2008
  • EXPERT
Something must be causing the engine to be running rich to cause the manifold to glow red hot. Disconnecting the IAT has the ECM reverting to preset values and this could cause the flatspot.

Scan through and see if you have any codes other than IAT. The MAF can operate badly without showing any codes, it just operates either too rich or lean in most cases and this fits the description of your vehicle symptoms.
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Saturday, August 1st, 2009 AT 10:11 PM

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