New Yorker No Start

Tiny
WILLI1
  • MEMBER
  • 1988 CHRYSLER NEW YORKER
  • 6 CYL
  • FWD
  • AUTOMATIC
I emailed awhile ago regarding 1988 Chrysler New Yorker(3.0 V-6) Fuel issue. The car has sat for five years. New fuel pump done, I have spark and I am getting fuel at the injector rail. Compression is 130. New battery. Cleaned out the Idle air circuit too. Car will not start, any suggestions?
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Thursday, April 28th, 2011 AT 1:26 AM

19 Replies

Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • EXPERT
Engine Computer has to relearn "minimum throttle". I know this sounds too simple, but have you tried holding the gas pedal down 1/4"?
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Thursday, April 28th, 2011 AT 2:09 AM
Tiny
WILLI1
  • MEMBER
Have not tried 1/4" gas pedal thing, I will let you know how that works.
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Thursday, April 28th, 2011 AT 12:37 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • EXPERT
Also try unlocking the doors with the key after the battery was connected / charged. My '93 Dynasty goes to theft mode when I reconnect the battery. The running lights flash but the horn doesn't blow. The engine won't start until I reach around and unlock the door from the outside. I can't remember if that applies to an '88 model.
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Thursday, April 28th, 2011 AT 5:18 PM
Tiny
WILLI1
  • MEMBER
Tried the 1/4" thing, did not work. No anti theft on this one that I know of. Found some broken wires to the injector harness, repaired those, still no start. Any more ideas?
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Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 AT 7:03 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • EXPERT
I'm ignoring a lot of common stuff because you have spark. The next thing is to be sure the fuel pump is running. There is no pressure test port on the 3.0L so the fastest way is to listen by the tank. You should hear the pump run for one second after a helper turns on the ignition switch. That will prove the wiring is okay. Next, the pump should turn on again during cranking. That can be harder to hear so you might try holding your finger on the fuel pump relay to see if it turns on again during cranking.

You can also try squirting a little gas into the throttle body to see if it runs for a few seconds.
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Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 AT 8:21 PM
Tiny
GIZMOGUY
  • MEMBER
You may have old fuel (turned to varnish?) In the fuel tank and in the fuel lines from the tank. That may have clogged the fuel injectors. I suggest you get a can of starting fluid (spray) and spray a short (maybe two second) burst into the air intake hose (which you will have to disconnect from the engine control computer first). Then immediately crank the engine. If it fires at all, you have a fuel delivery issue. You could also disconnect the fuel line at the engine and, using a fuel line extension, catch fuel from the tank, being pumped by the new fuel pump. If it works, then maybe you can empty the bad fuel out of the tank (if any) without taking the tank completely off! But bad fuel is bad news for all fuel system components! Check the fuel filter. It it clogged? Also, the '88 3.0's has an AIS motor (automatic idle speed) motor that was troublesome if they sat for a while, but that would not prevent starting, but only prevent idling after starting!
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Thursday, May 12th, 2011 AT 3:19 AM
Tiny
WILLI1
  • MEMBER
Yeah I have been thinking the same thing. Yes I do have fuel flow to the rail, disconnected line and cranked engine. Starter fluid did let it fire for a split second. I have been trying to track down a set of injector O-rings, so I can pull the injectors to check for fuel spray and pattern, but am having no luck. Any suggestion where to get a set of O-rings? Fuel filter is new, replaced when I put in the new pump. I also cleaned the AIS motor.
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Saturday, May 14th, 2011 AT 3:16 PM
Tiny
GIZMOGUY
  • MEMBER
Now you're getting somewhere on your Chrysler's problem! By proving the engine will fire with starting fluid squirted into the air intake passage, you have proved a whole lot of things are working correctly! The timing belt is OK (or at least usable), because the overhead camshafts are turning. The ignition system is working also, and the ignition timing is close enough to run the engine. You have adequate compression. If you didn't, the engine would not run at all, so the entire valve train is working enough to run the engine for a short time. My bet is on fuel volatility (that is, it might not have any "fire power" left in the fuel).

You could be right about the fuel injectors. They could be clogged up. Often, they can be cleaned out by soaking (submerged) in a good carburetor cleaner for several hours, but take all possible precautions when using any such cleaners! Do it OUTSIDE, with the wind (if any) blowing the fumes AWAY from you, or lacking any wind, you could set up a fan to blow the fumes away from you. Use gloves, face and eye protection rated for caustic (acidic) chemicals, and dispose of all the waste through a hazardous waste disposal company! Those chemicals can be absorbed through the skin and destroy critical organs (like your liver)! They can also cause cancer and/or COPD (permanent breathing problems)! They can also cause birth defects! Don't gamble with getting any of that stuff on your flesh! Have you considered buying a NEW set of fuel injectors? Before you do that, why not catch some fuel from the fuel rails? That is also dangerous to the body, but not as bad as chemically-based carburetor cleaners! Sprinkle a dribble of the fuel into a steel pan or on a concrete block and try to light it while it is still wet, from a distance, using a grill lighter or sparker, from as much distance as you can arrange. DO NOT STAND ABOVE THE POTENTIAL FIRE! If the fuel is usable, it will ignite instantly and burn until it is completely dry. If the fire goes out while still wet, you have found your problem! Also, instead of removing the injectors, LOOSEN a few spark plugs, leaving those spark plugs OFF their plugs, then crank the engine for several seconds. Then immediately unscrew the spark plug and look at it and smell it. Does it look and smell completely dry (meaning that that injector is not working), or does it smell like something else other than gasoline? If it smells funny (like turpentine or paint thinner), then you most likely have bad fuel in the lines going to the engine! Brand new fuel injectors cannot even make stale fuel run in an engine! You will have to clear out any bad fuel from the fuel lines all the way back to the tank if that is the problem. Sorry about that, but five year old gasoline is most likely beyond redemption!
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Sunday, May 15th, 2011 AT 5:36 PM
Tiny
WILLI1
  • MEMBER
I have new fuel in it. I am getting fuel on the plugs. Checked fault codes, 12, 55, my book says 12 is "Problem with stand-by memory circuit. Direct battery input to controller disconnected within the last 50 ignition key-ons." That does not sound like the problem, but could it be? If so how do fix it? I has a new battery in it with good voltage. I am stumped.
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+1
Friday, June 3rd, 2011 AT 9:31 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • EXPERT
12 means the ignition switch was turned off. Some models don't even bother to display it. 55 just means "end of message". In effect, you have no codes.

I doubt fuel quality is the issue. I have an '80 Volare with a carburetor that starts instantly and runs fine on the gas I last put in well over five years ago, and a '93 Dynasty with 4,100 miles that I last put gas in at least eight years ago. It runs fine too.

Did you check for spark at the plug wires or just at the coil wire? If you have it at the plug wires, you might have gas-fouled spark plugs. They get a coating on them that shorts out the spark even after they've been dried off.

Since you had some broken wires, I'd be looking closer at the harness that feeds the injectors. In particular, also look at the 7-pin round connector near the throttle body. Check the terminals in it for corrosion. Check for voltage at the injectors too.
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Friday, June 3rd, 2011 AT 10:12 PM
Tiny
GIZMOGUY
  • MEMBER
I'm afraid Cardiodoc made a mistake in his last post! Code 12 on your Chryler means the battery was disconnected within the last 50 start cycles, NOT that the ignition key was turned off! Try squirting a little more starting fluid into the air intake hose. If the engine fires (starts up) momentarily, your problem is still fuel delivery. But if the plugs are wet with fuel, and yet starting fluid starts the engine, the engine has no other problems that are prevenrting successful starts. You could have new fuel in the tank, but if that same new fuel has not made it all the to the fuel rails at the engine, lack of volatile fuel delivery is still the issue! Cardiodoc's old gasoline may still be good, but we don't know that fuel's origin. Many of the cheaper fuels sold in the last 24-36 months do go bad in short order because the preservatives that help the fuel stay volatile long term are missing from cheap (chinsey, but NOT inexpensive) fuels these days! I had fuel go bad in the tank of my 1988 Dodge Dynasty LE (with a 3.0L V6 in it) in less than one year, and the only things I had to do correct the problem was take the fuel pump out, stick a fuel hose in the tank through the fuel pump opening, pump all the old fuel out into a container (perhaps 2-3 gallons), then remove the fuel line from BOTH the tank end and the engine end, then blow out all the old fuel from those lines. Then I replaced the removed fuel with fresh gasoline, cranked the engine about ten turns and the engine startted right up and ran fine after that. But if the vehicle is going to sit any length of time, put some Stabile (fuel stabilizer for long term storage) in the fuel. But such products CANNOT make bad fuel usable again, make no mistake about that!
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Saturday, June 4th, 2011 AT 1:42 PM
Tiny
WILLI1
  • MEMBER
In answer to Caradiodoc, I do have spark at the plugs. I have been checking as many wire connectors and vacuum hoses as I can find, still working on that part. I will try cleaning the plugs. What voltage should I have at the injectors?
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Saturday, June 4th, 2011 AT 2:12 PM
Tiny
GIZMOGUY
  • MEMBER
Sadly, unless you have an oscilloscope that read very short pulses, any voltage readings taken with a meter (regardless whether the meter is digital or analog) will not be conclusive. The fuel injectors are delivered very short pulses with a very low duty cycle (long time off, short time on). But if the plugs are getting wet (even if it is bad fuel), the injectors are either leaking or responding correctly to the pulses.
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Saturday, June 4th, 2011 AT 4:08 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • EXPERT
You're right gizmoguy about code 12. I'm accustomed to ignoring it because it is so common. On some scanners the description comes up as "Switched 12 Volts Lost" so I assumed all these years it was from the ignition switch. I just checked my '88 Grand Caravan and indeed there is no code 12 coming up.

Willi1, what I'm referring to about measuring the voltages at the injectors only pertains to a no-start condition and the possibility of corroded terminals in the electrical connector. '88 models were just changing over from the 12 volts coming from the ignition switch to coming from the automatic shutdown (ASD) relay. The ASD relay only turns on during engine rotation, (cranking or running). I don't have the service manual for that year to see which system you have so I'll describe both systems.

This probably doesn't apply to your problem because you're getting fuel on the spark plugs. That suggests the injectors are working. Nevertheless, with the ignition switch in the "run" position, measure the voltage on one of he injectors. You should find full battery voltage on both wires. If you do, that voltage comes from the ignition switch. If you find 0 volts, measure again while a helper is cranking the engine. If you find voltage now, it's coming through the ASD relay. That's how all models worked by around 1988 to '91. Either way, that proves voltage is at the injectors and you know the common feed circuit is okay. If any of the other wires had a bad connection they would affect just that one injector so you'd have a misfire, not a no-start condition.

For this no-start condition to be caused by broken, corroded, or disconnected wires, all six of them would have to be affected which isn't very likely. The Engine Computer can cause no injectors to fire but that isn't common either. For a 6-cylinder engine there are going to be two, three, or six separate drivers, (electronic switches). They rarely fail to begin with and it's not likely they would all fail at the same time, and especially not from just sitting unused for a few years. It's more likely a fuse link would be burned open, but they feed multiple things so you would have different symptoms. You wouldn't be looking in the injector circuits. The computer itself could be the problem, but Chrysler had extremely little trouble with theirs.

The last thing that would cause the injectors to not fire is missing signals from the camshaft position sensor in the distributor, but those signals are needed for the computer to trigger the ignition coil and create the spark. You have spark so you know the sensors are working and the ASD relay is turning on.

All you can check on the second injector wire is for the presence of battery voltage. In the extremely rare event is it missing when you have 12 volts on the other wire, the coil inside the injector is either open, the wire is grounded, or the computer is shorted and keeping that wire grounded. That means that injector would be staying open and filling the cylinders on that side of the engine with raw gas. By now you would be smelling the gas and probably seeing the level go up on the oil dipstick. That is so uncommon there's no need to elaborate on diagnosing it.

The short pulse width gizmoguy referred to is related to when the engine is running. Those pulses occur and are over with so quickly that your voltmeter won't pick them up. Even with the engine running, the meter will display near battery voltage, but it is likely to be bouncing around causing some confusion. To simplify the description, lets say you have 14 volts feeding the injector while the engine is running. (It's higher than battery voltage because the alternator puts out higher voltage). The second injector wire will also have 14 volts, ... Most of the time. The computer will ground that second wire for a few milliseconds to turn the injector on, then it will go back to an open circuit and the injector will turn back off. During that firing time, the voltage on the second wire will be 0 volts. That's what you need the oscilloscope to see.

A digital voltmeter takes a reading, thinks about it, then displays it in the readout. Then it takes another reading, analyzes it, and displays it again. As it takes those readings, most of the time it's going to see 14 volts, but every once in a while it's going to take one when the voltage is at 0 volts. Since it tries to somewhat smooth out the readings, what you will see is not a steady 14 volts, but rather a confusing bouncing voltage. That is to be expected, but you wouldn't be bothering to take those readings if the engine was running. The voltage readings will be much more stable during cranking because there are fewer pulses of 0 volts in a given amount of time. The older analog meters with a pointer smooth the readings out a lot because it takes the pointer time to respond. You won't get near the accuracy of a digital meter, but without straining to do the math in my head, you might expect to see 14.0 volts on one wire and around 13.8 volts on the second one. Again, that pertains to an engine that's running. You wouldn't be taking those measurements if it was running.

Now that that's all cleared up, I still suspect it's bad gas. There's no convenient test port for fuel pressure on the fuel rail, so an easy way to pump some old gas out is to disconnect the larger of the two rubber hoses where they go from the right strut tower to the engine, and run a hose into a can. The fuel pump will only run for one second after you turn on the ignition switch and during cranking. Bypass the fuel pump relay to keep the pump running. For '88 models, the relays will be bolted to the left inner fender. If it comes to that I'll have to try to find the service manual to figure out which relay is for the pump. You might be able to identify it by placing your fingers on them while a helper turns the ignition switch on. You are looking for the one that clicks on, then clicks off about one second later. There might be two separate relays that do that, the fuel pump and the ASD relays. Use a jumper wire or clip lead on the wire side of the connector to connect the two fatter wires. You should hear the pump running when you're near the tank.

Once you add new gas you can run the pump like that too to circulate it to the fuel rail after the hose is reconnected. Even just by cranking the engine the pump will be running so the new fuel will get to the engine within a few seconds. It circulates through the pressure regulator and back to the tank, but that still leaves a little old gas inside the injector. You still might have to crank a little to get that old gas out.

If you want to experiment a little, throw a little old gas on the ground and throw a lit match on it to see if the fuel burns. We had two cars come in with no-start conditions two days apart. After scratching his head for a whole day on the first one, the mechanic did that and the fuel put the match out! Turns out they both had just bought gas from the same place. One of those cars happened to be a New Yorker too. The suspicion was the station had just had an additive put in the tank prior to having it filled with gasoline, and those customers got a tankful of additive, not gas. I don't know if that's accurate but it sounded good at the time!

Once you do get the engine started, be sure to change the oil right away. There will have been a pile of raw fuel washing down the cylinders into the oil. Even though it might not be gasoline any longer, it still will dilute the oil and destroy its lubricating properties. I won't bother describing what happened to my mother's minivan but once I got it running, she made it only 50 miles before the engine came apart. Later I found the oil was two quarts overfull with fuel.

By the way, if you guys need an oscilloscope, I have ten for sale!
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Saturday, June 4th, 2011 AT 11:08 PM
Tiny
GIZMOGUY
  • MEMBER
One more possibility that might keep your engine from starting is a failed (or intermittent) AIS motor. AIS stands for "Automatic Idle Speed." When you first turn on the key switch, the AIS motor should run for a very brief time. The way I usually check those without any help is to have one battery cable disconnected (it doesn't really matter which one), then turn the key switch on to the "run" position, then reconnect the disconnected battery terminal. But DON'T do that with any open filler caps on the battery! If the AIS motor and its wiring are OK, you will hear a short whine from it as it adjusts in preparation for starting the engine. If it does not adjust at all, the air-to-fuel mixture will probably not be correct to support combustion in the cylinders. Sometimes tapping on them with a plastic screwdriver handle will jar AIS motors enough to make them run again, as long as voltage is available to the motor when the tapping occurs. Usually the problem with AIS motors is dirty brushes and/or commutators. Good luck!
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Sunday, June 5th, 2011 AT 12:41 AM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • EXPERT
No brushes in that motor. It has four coils that are pulsed by the computer to position the armature. They used to have a lot of trouble with the air passages around the throttle blade getting plugged on the 3.0L engines but I haven't heard of that for a long time. Low idle speed IS definitely going to be a problem since the battery was disconnected or run dead. That's why I mentioned holding the gas pedal down 1/4" way back in the first reply.

Sorry Willi1 that I didn't mention it earlier. Once you get it running you're going to have to make it relearn "minimum throttle". To meet the conditions for that to occur, drive at highway speed with the engine warmed up, then coast for at least seven seconds without touching the brake or gas pedals. Until you do that, you also will not get the nice idle flare-up to 1500 rpm for a couple of seconds when you start the engine. That is part of what the AIS motor is responsible for. Until minimum throttle is relearned, the computer won't know when it is supposed to be in control of idle speed. The most common complaints, besides hard starting, are the engine stalls when you come to a stop, or it stalls when you shift into gear.
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Sunday, June 5th, 2011 AT 1:14 AM
Tiny
WILLI1
  • MEMBER
Just to let you know, I did finally get the New Yorker running. Turned out to be gummed up injectors. Pulled off the fuel rail and cranked it over, only one sprayed fuel. Cleaned the injectors with carb cleaner and reinstalled, five of the six sprayed. Found a used injector, installed and all six sprayed. Put it all back together and, we have start up and run.

Thanks for the help and Ideas.
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Saturday, August 6th, 2011 AT 1:36 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • EXPERT
Dandy news. I read a lot about cars stored for years but I've never run into that problem. I have an '80 Volare with a carburetor and a '93 Dynasty with fuel injection. It's been well over five years since I put gas in either one yet they both start and run fine.

Chrysler has much less trouble with injectors than other manufacturers but since cleaning helped, that suggests old fuel. Happy to hear it's solved.
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Saturday, August 6th, 2011 AT 10:15 PM
Tiny
GIZMOGUY
  • MEMBER
Replied on May 11, 2011

"You may have old fuel (turned to varnish?) In the fuel tank and in the fuel lines from the tank. That may have clogged the fuel injectors. I suggest you get a can of starting fluid (spray) and spray a short (maybe two second) burst into the air intake hose (which you will have to disconnect from the engine control computer first). Then immediately crank the engine. If it fires at all, you have a fuel delivery issue."

I've been there, and done that, more times than I care to remember! Older gas (pumped years ago) was a LOT better at staying volatile than the garbage fuel we are being sold today... At several times the price of the older (but much better) fuel!
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Thursday, August 11th, 2011 AT 10:14 PM

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