Mechanics

DOES TIMING BELT FAILED WILL AFFECTED CYLINDER HEAD?

Kia Other

I have Kia Spectra 2004, Malaysia - Last 3 and half weeks ago i sent my car to the the one of the car dealer to repair it. The problem starts when i drove my car at 60KM per hour and suddenly the car died and the car was slipped for about 20 meter ahead without engine running.

After sent to the workshop, the timing belt failed and after few days the told me that 2 small valves was broke, without show it to me that the cylinder head was affected. At first the mechanic just told me that he has to bring the cylinder head to the other workshop to check the cylinder head whether its bend or not. After few days he just mentioned that the cylinder head is broke and need to be repaired. But i didn't satisfied because when i asked how do you check the cylinder head failure, he just said he has an agreement with the other workshop just to reveal the result of the testing.

This statement was unbelieveable because as aclient we need to know how and where the cylinder head being tested.

My question is does it really affected the cylinder head when timing belt failed? If yes what is the significance problem? Does it look like these - images?


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/101212_14092007114_1.jpg



http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/101212_14092007112_1.jpg

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Mfaza
September 20, 2007.



Engine size would be nice to know. Unless it is a 3.5 motor, it has a timing belt and will cause the situation. I would expect that the head is probably cracked. I would expect bent valves and cylinder head problems on it. The cylinder head can be pressure tested for cracks and may be magna-fluxed where dye exposes other wise hidden cracks.

My guess is your mechanic is hiding the fact that he doesn't know what they do to check them.

You can request the head be returned to you and send it to another machine shop, but you'll probably end up with the same result.

Its Spectra 1.6 Auto 16 Valve.

Let me tell you the problem that i faced now, i suspected that the mechanic trying to sabotage my cylinder head with tapping on the cylinder head. (previous pictures shown - why only certain area). Yes, there was a bent valves as the mechanic told me but most of the mechanic here did not really see the tapping affects on the cylinder head in their years of experienced. If that the taping caused by the broken valves, why its only at one area and not at all particular cylinder head area?
In your experience when the small valves broken; does it look like in the pictures?

If its crack or else it totally can be accepted but then the tapping affects seems doesn't really right in the eyes.

Yes i did get back the cylinder head, piston and broken valves yesterday and today i'll send for appropriate testing.

I guess this is something to do with the attitudes toward getting the good business margin in particular case especially to me who are not really know the engine aspects.

What is your opinion?
HERE IS ANOTHER IMAGES to be evaluates


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/101212_13092007105_1.jpg



http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/101212_13092007091_1.jpg



http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/101212_13092007069_1.jpg



http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/101212_13092007104_1.jpg


Tiny
Mfaza
Sep 20, 2007.
Either I am misunderstanding, or you mean tapping on the piston face.

This is what I see:


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/30961_piston_1.jpg



See how that piston has a ton of carbon (black) on it's face in comparison to the others? ( I would like a clear close up of this face). This says to me there was an issue on this cylinder. The valves were in in sequence right as far as opening and closing. Fuel was getting into the cylinder but not combusting properly at the right time. Carbon is a sign of rich condition. When it was combusting at the wrong time, it was blowing past the rings, as evidenced by the carbon traces in this pic:


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/30961_piston1_1.jpg



I have seen this and will post a pic of one....if I can find it :shock:

Ok, here is the cyllinder head, see how the exhaust valves not only got bent, but actually snapped them right off?


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/30961_cylhd2a_1.jpg



Then here is the block with the pistons still in it. You can see the areas where the valves were hitting the piston face, and then on the upper right where one of the valve faces that snapped off got crushed on the piston and knocked some of the carbon off.


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/30961_cylhd1a_1.jpg



Also notice how some of the cylinders have a heavier carbon build up.

Your first picture on the left side was actually looks like my problem but it has both side tapped effects. Was it because of the broken valves, and how technically it happened? In my cylinder head there is effects on the upper side, and I just want to make sure that it wasn't cause by the timing belt failed but in fact by the human which sabotage my cylinder head. I can't still believe that there is an example of the same problem.

Please help and tell me the technical and mechanical of this problem. In your experience, it possible to have the broken cylinder head that cause by the timing belt failed?

I really need this explanation and proof that my cylinder head isn't really that way by the broken valves. Why I am saying that is because most of the mechanics here didn't really see this problem if I drove at 60KM per hour. They have one similar case and the driver drove his car at 100KM per hour but then nothing broke his cylinder head. That's is a big question to me, why it happen to my car?

Could you really give some more clear advise. I will send the close up of the piston and 2 broken valves.

You can see what I meant toward this discussion. See the broken valve and try to match the edges of broken each of it. It is clear didn't match and I suspect that the rsponsible mechanic had sabotage my thing.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Tiny
Mfaza
Sep 24, 2007.
IMHO, just because a small group of techs haven't seen something, clearly does not mean it isn't possible.

When an interference engine goes out of timing, it becomes a game of russian roullette. You might get the blank you might get the bullet. These valves are now going in a random pattern up and down, the piston is now moving in an up and down pattern that may not be in sync with each other. If they hit each other it may be immediatly, it may in in 20 more revolutions it may be in 20,000 more revolutions. There is NO PREDICTIBILITY anymore. Factors that can influence this is how often the engine was cranked afterwards. IF someone thinks they can get it started and continues to crank it, the probability will rise that damage will occur.

When a valve breaks, various patterns can show on the piston head as fragments are bouncing around it there. IF a valve is forced too hard it can press hard against the thin area between the cylinder and crack it. (see the arrow and the valves direction of bend) It may crack it at a point that it is unrepairable or not visual.


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/30961_cylhd2b_1.jpg



Let's see the pictures.

Here is the pictures. For your information, i might use your explanation as one of my arguments toward the workshop plus my experience dealing with the responsible tech.

Hope you could help me in facts and mechanical statements.

See the piston, its was a huge damaged on it with a hole and tapped effect.


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/101212_24092007131_1_1.jpg


I'm wondering why on the cylinder head itself only one part caused a damage.
Within that cylinder another bigger valves didn't get any effects at all. How could you trust it? It suppose affected to all things in the cylinder head based on the piston damages..

See the small valves, it was broke and the edges didn't match (sorry for the out of focus images - using N80 phone though). Imagine the damages on the piston and see the valves, are you really think that the valves cause the hole? The valves itself didn't really has huge damage, am i right?

What is your judgement and evaluations?

Thank you. I appreciate it.


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/101212_24092007132_2.jpg



http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/101212_24092007136_1_copy_1.jpg



http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/101212_24092007148_1.jpg



http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/101212_24092007149_1_copy_1.jpg


Tiny
Mfaza
Sep 24, 2007.
Pics are fine..especially for a phone!

I assume you know the pieces of valves were connected.


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/30961_valve_1.jpg



I doubt the stems of the valve ever made direct contact. They "may" have extended out and hit the bottom part of the valves while they were bouncing around in the compression chamber, but that's not relevant.

Think about the metals properties. the valves are made of steel and are hard. the piston is made of aluminum which is more susceptible to damage from a harder metal...such as steel. The valve faces that broke off ar not going to land flat everytime, they may be in a multitude of positions and probably on top of each other as the piston is flying up and down and trying to crush them. The aluminum piston is malluable to a certain point until it separates. The valve went in on the piston sideways and probably broke through on one hit.


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/30961_piston2a_1.jpg


The reason it doesn't fit into that gash perfectly is the piston face contiuned to mash on the valve face portion continuing to deform the pistion face.

This is probably the initial contact points :


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/30961_piston1a_1.jpg



When this kind of situation occurs it may be in one, two, three or four of the cylinders. The head that I showed was an extreme situation, thus why I saved it. More typical is one or two cylinders that get damaged and usually the valves only bend not snap. It was so extrodinary it was worth documenting.

The hole in the piston further supports the technicians innocence, When the hole opened up on the piston face, the carbon from the mis-firing cylinder shows up on the connecting rod. Also notice how on the piston that there is carbon on the opposite side of where the majority of the damage occured? The piston probably flexed enough to let carbon escape because of a pivoting action from the valve faces getting crushed on one side and contorting the piston.


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/30961_piston1a_2.jpg



I don't see how the technician was at fault what-so-ever. Look at it from another angle, what motivation would he have to damage it? Techs are paid on labor, not parts.

I found this, just because it is remotely related:


http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/30961_hondacyla_1.jpg



http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/30961_hondacylb_1.jpg



http://www.2carpros.com/forum/automotive_pictures/30961_hondacylc_1.jpg



If you would like, I can ask other guys here for their opinion.

Thanks Paul, i'm kinda satisfied with your explanations on the piston and valve. Again back to the cylinder head, was it possible to have one upper side to be damaged? (Refer to my case), As you described, " When this kind of situation occurs it may be in one, two, three or four of the cylinders. The head that I showed was an extreme situation, thus why I saved it. More typical is one or two cylinders that get damaged and usually the valves only bend not snap. It was so extrodinary it was worth documenting. &Quot; So, i'm just curious on how the badly piston can cause the one side cylinder head damaged. I assumed that it must damage all rounded in the cylinder head face. But it won't, right? THAT'S question didn't really answer and I wanted to have the wider opinion among your colleagues.

YES, techs are paid on labor but telling you the truth, in Malaysia this don't really applied to most of the techs. They tends to mark up the prices and then be able to get their own profits out of it. Not to give bad interpretation of Malaysian techs but they are most likely to do that.

I suspect they change my cylinder head with another car because during that time there was one case that has similar situation and it might happened.

The truth is, I did filed the case to the consumer court and will be hearing on the coming 1st October. I want to win this case and had them pay for me. Unfortunately, as an expert you are not on my side and I have to be ready to face any consequences.

The motivation he had to do that is for the profits margin.

The curiosity of his sincerity would be these
1. He did asked me that time, was it me really know about an engine? My answer was definitely, I don't know anything about that.
2. I asked him to show me where was the damage, he refused to do that until I towed it back without any repairs.
3. I asked him why I can have the pics that he captured at the first stage of opening the engine. He said, that pics was for company goods and it was confidential.
4. I asked him how he tested the cylinder head? Any report or techical expalantion? He didn't really show his professional attitude where he just mentioned that the other workshop had an agreement with that the cylinder was faulted.
5. He took a week to revealed the cylinder head problem. In facts the quotation was too shocked. RM10,000.00 about U.S2940.00 to repair the whole engine. It was unbelieveable here in Malaysia.

My question to you: Between cylinder head and piston, which one on the top of its configuration? If the cylinder head on the top, the cylinder head must be opened and clearly reveals the damages right?

BUT in my situation, at the first day he showed to me the piston, why he didn't shows the cylinder head? He said that he had to test the cylinder head first, if he was very sincere, he must show to me the damaged area then I can trusted him. It didn't really happened that time, after 2 days he just mentioned cylinder head fault but didn't show the damages. I suspected him hiding something. I'm not satisfied then I towed it to the other workshop and they revealed to me damaged cylinder head. How should I trust him?

Paul, I need some other opinions on this matter. Thank you. I appreciate it.
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Tiny
Mfaza
Sep 25, 2007.
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