Car won't start. No spark.

Hi !
I said the battery was hooked up backwards because it is a 6v POSITIVE GROUND system, therefore the ground is the + terminal. The man used a 12v battery with the - terminal hooked up to the ground. Surprisingly, the car started and ran, though really rough, like this. When he switched the cables around, everything worked great. The car started easily, and ran smooth. That was the last time it ran.
I've done just about every kind of work on all kinds of cars for over 40 years now, but have never had one quite this old, and never a 6v, nor a positive ground.
I've heard about polarizing the system the wrong way. The stater does crank the engine around, but just will not get any spark to the plugs. I never thought to check if it is spinning it the wrong way.
I replaced the condensor thinking that would have been easy to burn out. I tested the old, original coil in the car, and it came up bad. I replaced that with a new 6v coil. I used my tester, and somehow get 6v to the positive terminal on the coil with the ignition off, and this falls to zero with the ignition on, just the opposite of what I would expect. The points open and close (cranked with the dist. Cap off) and you can see them spark.
Maybe it is polarized backwards. I'll have to check which way it should turn, and see if it does that. I thought that the polarizing only affected the generator. Since it won't start at all, I can't tell.
Gas is not an issue, as I know it is getting to the carb. We even tried a shot of ether in it. I pulled the #1 plug wire off, but there is no spark gapping from the lead wire when cranked.
Like I said before, the car DID start easily, once the batt cables were put on the right way. Just won't do a thing since. Please let me know, if you know, just how much switching polarity would affect the car. Would that only cause the generator not to work, or would it switch everything backward?
Thanks for your help.
Bob

Hi !
OK, I will be up. I'm in Japan right now, and just got up from a nap. So, I will wait for your response.
Thanks again.
Bob

Hi Again !
Thanks for your response.

1. Yes, the car is an all original 1948 Dodge Custom. This site did not have a vehicle year choice that far back, so it says 2011 Dodge, but it's not - it is an all original, 6 volt system. The wiring is also all original, fabric insulated. Some fraying on the distributer wires, but they are not shorting, and I get good continuity on them.

2. Yes, the car was originally manufactured as a 6 volt, positive ground system, as most were at the time.

3. There is a small, relay-looking item that the ignition wires go to and from the distributer, and I am told that this is an after market voltage reducer, which was common at the time, to reduce the voltage to the points to make them last longer. It is the only item not on the original schematic.

4. No word of mouth, this is a 6 volt car. The starter turned faster with the 12 v batt, but not THAT fast.

5. Yes, the battery POS terminal is hooked the ground.

6. We charged the 6v battery, and the engine cranks around just fine, just no spark produced. I don't know if the engine is spinning the right way, or not. I'll have to look at that when I get out to it. I have not tried using a 12v battery in it.

7. The starter moves just fine, and cranks the engine around well.

It is a generator - this is a really original, un-altered car. I can try to get some pics for you, if that will help. There is no ballast resistor, no fuses, either. Only a circut breaker on the headlamp switch, which I looked for, but could not find, or recognize. The car has an ignition switch, with the key, and a starter button on the left of the dash.

I am starting to get the idea that maybe, when the car was started, and ran real rough with the 12 v batt, that it actually started and ran BACKWARDS. The previous owner very infrequently drove the car, so maybe he drove it up the driveway in reverse, with the engine running backwards? Why it ran OK after switching the cables, and will not start now, is still a mystery.
This would presume that the whole ignition circut is now backwards, and not just the generator.

I really need to see if the starter turns the engine backwards.

Thanks,

Bob

Hi Again !

I will certainly check the fan rotation when I get home. The engine being turned the wrong way will explain a lot.

The item that I was told might be a 'voltage reducer' is no ballast resistor - I have seen yours in the photo, and have seen many others before. There is no ceramic piece at all. It actually looks like a mini voltage regulator, with a rectangular domed metal cap. I went to NAPA to see if they had one, and we found a picture on their computer of an identical item. They call it a horn relay. Maybe it is exactly that, but it is not located where the schematic says it should be, and is an obviously added-on part. The ignition wire connects to it, and this car was originally manufactured so that the ignition must be on in order to sound the horn, unlike modern vehicles. I am trying to get a new one of these, anyway, since something may have burned out in it, but I really don't think this is the cause. I could certainly try jumping it, anyway. I can also try hotwiring the car.

First of all, I will crank it again, and check the fan rotation. It it goes backwards, then I know the problem. Re-polarizing the system seems pretty easy to do. Failing that, I will jump the relay, and/or just hotwire the car.

I hate to be convinced of a solution based on conjecture, but a lot of things add up here. First, the owner fully charged the 6v battey, and then installed it in the car before delivering it to me - but he probably connected the negative to the ground, draining the battery in the 2 days it took to get here. Then he hooked-up the 12v to it, also backwards. It started, but ran real rough, and took lots of throttle to keep it running, because the engine was really running backwards! I think this would be possible because the timing is close to TDC, so not such a reach. Then, not really that familiar with the car himself, wound up putting it into reverse (it's really a Fluid Drive) to drive it forward into the driveway. Why it started again really easy after hooking up the battery the right way is still a mystery, as the polarity should have already been switched at this point. Somewhere in this scenario, whatever was left in the field winding of the original 63 year-old coil probably gave out, and that's why it tested bad later.

So, I will just have to see what way the engine turns, and go from there.

I'll let you know how it turns out. Thanks again for all your help.

Bob

Hi Medic !

Went out to the car, and re-installed the regulator and horn relay. A good friend of ours owns a classic VW repair shop, and came out to see the car.

First, the engine was turning the right way. Second, the car has no ballast resistor, and the relay that I have is, in fact, a horn relay.

He had me crank the car to see that happen. Then he took a screwdriver, nd put it into the #1 spark plug lead, and against the plug. Crank again, no spark.

He took off the cap and looked at the rotor, and tested it - still good. Then he had a look at the new condensor I put in. I replaced it because I figured that it was the most fragile thing in the ignition system. He found the connection loose. It was a copper strap type condensor, and It took a little work to situate the strap fork where it needed to connect. But I know I tightened it better than that.

Turns out, the folded nut that it screws into is stripped. The problem really wasn't that, either. It was actually connected. The problem was that I put the fork of the strap in vertically. Seemed like the best way. Unfortunately forme, the ends of the forks were long enough to touch the breaker plate, and ground out. He re- installed the same condensor sideways, like it should be, and we tried it.

Vroom! Oh HAPPY DAY! He put a shot of ether into the carb, but it started instantly! After about 3 starts with ether, the gas finally got back up to the carb. The car starts very easily, and idles very smooth!

So, I will have to get a new folding nut for the distributer, and a carb kit, as the accelerator pump seems to be shot. But all in all, a good day.

I certainly Thank You for all the time you spent thinking about this, and sending responses to my problem. You brought up some interesting points that I had not thought of.
Thanks again.

Bob

Hi CJ MEDEVAC !
Yes, I have read your links, and see that you had, at some time, a similar occurance that I had. What a wonderful world of information the web is. You can reach thousands of people with experience with just a few keystrokes! (They just have to be willing to answer you.)
I don't know what a "Message" will do, but I am fine with that, and would be happy to be CyberPals with you on this post. Please let me know.
Thanks,
Bob - "cke140"

Hi CJ MEDEVAC !

Wish I could have posted the pics earlier, but the system wouldn't let me - I was using my iPad on the road. The car is really a great original - no mods, and this is actually the original 63 year-old paint!

You have to learn how to "wave" when driving this car. Something that I have not yet experienced. But will, very soon, when I fix the brakes, and the carb. The paint is the original 9 coats of good 'ol American laquer.

Hope to talk to you soon.
Thanks, again,

Bob - cke140